Pathfinder 1E Rules Question: Pathfinder diviner wizard asleep during an ambush

[blargney the second]

One of my players is playing a diviner. The party was ambushed while resting at night by some wolves who succeeded on their Stealth checks. The diviner was asleep when the attack began. The player insisted that his Forewarned special ability would wake him up so he could take an action during the surprise round.

Here's the relevant text:
Forewarned (Su) You can always act in the surprise round even if you fail to make a Perception roll to notice a foe, but you are still considered flat-footed until you take an action.

It's clear that if he's awake, he gets to act in the surprise round. That's nice and easy (and really powerful!). However, I don't think that it wakes him up from sleep during an ambush. Here's my reasoning: if he was stunned or dazed when a surprise round started, he wouldn't be able to act because those status conditions preclude him taking any actions. While asleep, he has the unconscious condition, which prevents taking actions.

So my spot ruling was that forewarning gives him a turn in the surprise round, but unconsciousness prevents him from taking any actions until he succeeds at a perception check to hear the fight.

Did I rule that reasonably, or should forewarning cure unconsciousness?
-blarg

 

[Sunseeker]

I think your ruling was correct here.

Spider-sense doesn't work if Parker is unconscious, and even if did, he's still unconcious.

If the character is awake, Forewarned keeps them well...forewarned. If they're not, then no dice.

I would say however, that they should be able to "wake up" during the surprise round as their action.

 

[paradox42]

It sort of depends on how you see the ability actually working, in "the real world" (by which I mean, the reality that the PCs exist within and that all these game rules attempt to simulate).

Apparently it's some sort of precognition; even the name of the ability tells you that much. But where and when does the warning come from? The "how" is less important here; simply answering "it's magic" is perfectly legitimate in this case- but if the caster gets the warning via spirits that tell him an attack is coming (for example), then that doesn't depend at all on the caster being conscious himself- the only question is whether the screams of the spirits can come to him in a dream or otherwise "just happen" to wake him up at precisely the correct moment to act against the attack. By contrast, if it is a true "Spidey Sense" in that it's the caster's own dim sense of the future which causes a feeling of intense danger just before an attack occurs, then clearly a sleeping caster won't get any warning at all and will stay asleep.

It is a small gray area within the rules, certainly, and that means that your ruling was fine as-is- though the player also had a legitimate argument by RAW, since unconsciousness can be "cured" without any action on the part of the PC. In a game of mine, I'd most likely rule that the Diviner automatically wakes up during the surprise round (no roll needed, even), and can therefore roll initiative normally and participate with other PCs during the regular rounds. But that's me.

 

[delericho]

It's clear that if he's awake, he gets to act in the surprise round. That's nice and easy (and really powerful!). However, I don't think that it wakes him up from sleep during an ambush. Here's my reasoning: if he was stunned or dazed when a surprise round started, he wouldn't be able to act because those status conditions preclude him taking any actions. While asleep, he has the unconscious condition, which prevents taking actions.

Okay, before I say anything, I should say this: it's your game, and your call. And your call here was not unreasonable.

Now, that said, I think you got it wrong.

Here's the thing: if the player had succeeded on his Perception check, what would have happened? Presumably, you'd have let him act. But your logic about the "unconscious" condition still applies - he's still unconscious, he still doesn't get to take any actions!

It really looks to me that that "forewarned" ability is some sort of supernatural sense that means that the character is always aware of ambushes... he's been forewarned! Therefore, I think you should let him wake, just as you would if he'd made his Perception check.

That said: that just means he's awake. Doesn't mean he's not tangled up in his bedroll, in his nightshirt, in his tent, and definitely not fully equipped for battle! So his most likely action in the surprise round should be "I get out of my tent."

 

[frankthedm]

I say the OP was wrong. Sleeping is covered by the perception rules.

Perception Modifiers
Creature making the check is asleep
DC Modifier +10

The ability does monkeywrench waaay too much stuff, but that is what the ability calls for. Autoperception abilities are often overpowered, but that's what paizo slapped on the Diviner.

EDIT

Now I think ruling the diviner is still helpless until his action in the surprise round occurs is within the bounds of the rules, which I think means the diviner is rolling init at -5 rather than normal DEX modifier.

 

[amerigoV]

Here is my position:

1. The (su) does not put any restrictions on it is use.

2. He's a frickin' Diviner. You nerfed his one chance in life to actually be cool. Now, all the other PCs will make fun of him "Some Diviner YOU are -- you did not see THAT coming!?!?!?"

 

[Alzrius]

There's no really clear answer here, simply due to the imprecise nature of what "always act" means in the power description.

That said, I think you made the right call. Here's why:

The power says that the PC can "always act" in a surprise round, even if they fail the Perception check to notice a foe. Now, it's true that you get a Perception check to notice someone even when you're asleep (since being asleep merely adds to the check DC, as mentioned above).

Here's the thing though - I see this power as having a large unwritten caveat: "if you're able to."

For example, if your player were paralyzed for some reason before combat ebgins (and thus unable to take any actions that weren't purely mental), would it be reasonable to insist that he can still take actions during the surprise round, despite being paralyzed, because the ability says he can "always act"?

Of course not! The ability is written with the implicit assumption that the PC isn't operating under conditions that would otherwise impede his actions, which I think being unconscious constitutes. For another example: If he was dead, and a new combat started, he wouldn't come back to life just for the surprise round, even if he "always acts" during it.

You made the right call, in my opinion.

 

[Nellisir]

I'm going to go with wrong call. I follow the logic of the counter-argument, but there are two points:
1) he does get to make a Perception check to wake up. Sleeping is not identical to unconsciousness. Unconscious characters do not make Perception checks that I am aware of.

2) It makes for better story.

 

[Vegepygmy]

Here's the thing: if the player had succeeded on his Perception check, what would have happened? Presumably, you'd have let him act. But your logic about the "unconscious" condition still applies - he's still unconscious, he still doesn't get to take any actions!

If he'd succeeded on the Perception check, he'd be awake (not unconscious), so he would be able to take actions.

OP made a wise ruling.

 

[Michael Silverbane]

To me, it seems like the ability, in this situation, is very much open to interpretation, so your call was fine. I personally would have ruled the other way.