D&D 5E Rules Question: Sniping & Readied Action
How are rafters different than people?
If a goblin can use a fellow goblin for cover while shooting, why can't he use a rafter for cover while shooting?
The concept that the goblin has to jump completely out of cover doesn't make sense. The entire point of sniping is to attack while maintaining cover. Not total cover, but partial.
Your ruling here suggests that you do not want any creature (PC included) to be able to snipe unless they are behind an arrow slit or some such.
Arrow slits are for 3/4ths cover. It's specifically designed to protect more. Walls, rafters, logs, stones, tables, etc. are for 1/2 cover while shooting.
aramis erak
Legend
Upon taking the Ready Action, they specify what action, and what trigger.
So in the goblin situation, it might be:
"Ready a bowshot for the first goblin who breaks cover"
or, for the fifth level fighter archer
"ready my multiattack bowshot for when there are two out of cover, and put one on each"
or
"Ready my multiattack bowshot for when the first drops, and kill him"
The Wizard might be..
"Ready my flame bolt for the first one in range and not in cover" or
"ready a create fire for the first one that moves towards us".
So in the goblin situation, it might be:
"Ready a bowshot for the first goblin who breaks cover"
or, for the fifth level fighter archer
"ready my multiattack bowshot for when there are two out of cover, and put one on each"
or
"Ready my multiattack bowshot for when the first drops, and kill him"
The Wizard might be..
"Ready my flame bolt for the first one in range and not in cover" or
"ready a create fire for the first one that moves towards us".
Quickleaf
Legend
To be clear, I'm no guru on all the cover / obscurement rules. I've always had a more fast and loose play style. Just trying to understand what's in the 5e rules as I'm still learning this edition.
So I was going off of what one friend explained to me. Basically that cover is rarely asymmetrical, the argument being that if the tree is between the goblin and the PC, then they have cover from each other.
I can see, however, that this is more Grid-oriented thinking than naturalistic-thinking.
After all, of course snipers can have cover from behind trees without PCs benefiting from that cover. And, of course the type of ranged weapon they're using should determine how much they have to expose themselves.
Though I'm not clear why the creatures example makes a difference. After all, creatures can be cover, so according to this Grid-oriented thinking if there's a goblin and a PC with another monster/PC in between them then that monster/PC would grant cover to both the goblin and the PC. Again, according to the Grid-oriented thinking.
To be clear: I'm not saying I have the answer. I'm just trying to understand the rules, their spirit and intention, and how these things are commonly handled by other 5e DMs.
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The issue is that these rules are all over the map in 5E because they are not always clearly defined (as evidenced by the fact that you wrote your first post here).
To me, the simple solution for this is:
1) The player declares a readied action to shoot the first goblin s/he sees.
2) Give the readying PC a perception roll (which has to beat the Goblin's previous hide roll assuming there was one, if not, some set DC) when the Goblin comes out to snipe. If the PC wins the roll, he shoots at the Goblin first. The Goblin gets the +2 cover bonus because the Goblin is not breaking partial cover. The Goblin is just sticking a head and arms out to shoot at the PCs. The Goblin then gets to fire back.
3) If the PC lost the perception roll, then the Goblin shoots at the PCs first. After the Goblin does that, the readying PC automatically spots him and again gets the partial cover shot before the Goblin can duck back under total cover.
4) The goblin ducks back into total cover.
From what I can tell, this follows the rules and is fairly simple. Alternatively if the Goblins were not hiding, then no perception roll needed. The PC won init and his readied action goes off before the Goblin gets to act. The Goblin still gets the partial cover bonus.
Zinnger
Explorer
I can see how this issue can cause some problems and confusion. It is hard for a DM who plans to have the perfect ambush only to have the party win initiative and kill the goblins before they even get to shoot. But, I think the rules are pretty clear about ready and reactions. The ready action needs to have a clear trigger for the act to occur. If the party sets this up correctly they get to take their action (reaction). The rules seem very clear about the fact that a reaction completely interrupts some other persons action. It is instant. Take for example the shield spell mentioned earlier. A wizard casts magic missile at the target and as the super accurate missiles are flying toward the target they have the option of quickly and instantly use their reaction to cast shield which then thwarts the magic missiles and the target takes no damage. Or even the swinging of a sword - the shield spell can be cast as a reaction AFTER the target realizes that they are about to be hit by the weapon. A reaction, when allowed, is very powerful indeed.
So, in my game, if the PC's win initiative they will indeed be able to kill my goblin before it shoots. But depending on how you do initiative it could still be a problem for the PC's. If the trigger for the ready action is to "shoot the first goblin I see" and you run the goblins all on the same initiative then the first goblin that moves may have 4 or 5 attacks on it from all the readied actions. The poor thing might never see it all coming. But all the remaining goblins would then have no more readied actions to worry about and get a clean shot on the PC's. Remember that the PC's cannot shoot and then move for better cover on a reaction so they are still visible for any remaining goblins who take their turn.
As for cover, I think the goblins would be able to retain some cover benefits unless the DM rules that they have to move completely out of the area to shoot and then return to cover after the attack. In fact, if the terrain allowed it, both sides could have partial cover (or even 3/4 cover depending again on terrain) from the other side and it would be like the old fashion shoot outs in the western movies.
But as DM, consider having only some goblins attack and others get too scared to act after seeing their buddies get hit with spells and arrows. Then the party may think they have eliminated all the goblins and when they break cover or no longer have arrows and spells readied... surprise - here comes the remaining goblins with their attacks!
Lots of ways to still have a lot of fun with this. But again, I think the PC's being able to see the goblins will shoot the goblins BEFORE the goblin gets to shoot. Then if it still lives it can return fire.
So, in my game, if the PC's win initiative they will indeed be able to kill my goblin before it shoots. But depending on how you do initiative it could still be a problem for the PC's. If the trigger for the ready action is to "shoot the first goblin I see" and you run the goblins all on the same initiative then the first goblin that moves may have 4 or 5 attacks on it from all the readied actions. The poor thing might never see it all coming. But all the remaining goblins would then have no more readied actions to worry about and get a clean shot on the PC's. Remember that the PC's cannot shoot and then move for better cover on a reaction so they are still visible for any remaining goblins who take their turn.
As for cover, I think the goblins would be able to retain some cover benefits unless the DM rules that they have to move completely out of the area to shoot and then return to cover after the attack. In fact, if the terrain allowed it, both sides could have partial cover (or even 3/4 cover depending again on terrain) from the other side and it would be like the old fashion shoot outs in the western movies.
But as DM, consider having only some goblins attack and others get too scared to act after seeing their buddies get hit with spells and arrows. Then the party may think they have eliminated all the goblins and when they break cover or no longer have arrows and spells readied... surprise - here comes the remaining goblins with their attacks!
Lots of ways to still have a lot of fun with this. But again, I think the PC's being able to see the goblins will shoot the goblins BEFORE the goblin gets to shoot. Then if it still lives it can return fire.
Re: Cover
From a grid0based perspective (4E a good reference) the goblin could shoot from "behind cover" if he could draw a line from a corner of his square to any corner of the target square. The number of corners dictating the amount of cover. Its more complicate than that, so look it up if interested. Therefore, if the goblin could fire without moving from his square (ie can draw a line from one corner to target corner) then he would get cover. If he had to step out to get those lines drawn, no cover.
As for order of operation of ready: I think its best as a DM to go strict: There is a difference between "ready to shoot first goblin I see" and "ready to shoot first goblin that shoots"
From a grid0based perspective (4E a good reference) the goblin could shoot from "behind cover" if he could draw a line from a corner of his square to any corner of the target square. The number of corners dictating the amount of cover. Its more complicate than that, so look it up if interested. Therefore, if the goblin could fire without moving from his square (ie can draw a line from one corner to target corner) then he would get cover. If he had to step out to get those lines drawn, no cover.
As for order of operation of ready: I think its best as a DM to go strict: There is a difference between "ready to shoot first goblin I see" and "ready to shoot first goblin that shoots"
Um.... that is actually exactly the opposite. Reactions happen *after* the triggering event; There are some exceptions, but they are explicitly stated as exceptions.
Quickleaf
Legend
[MENTION=6788910]Zinnger[/MENTION] You must be mistaking me with a DM who plans to have a perfect anything 
And yep, I do get that a reaction is sacrificing your action AND reaction in 5e, so it's meant to be a conditionally powerful option.
[MENTION=94389]jrowland[/MENTION] Interesting about the 4e using lines of sight to dictate degree of cover. That works in a mostly 2-D environment I suppose.
And yep, I get the difference between "ready to shoot a goblin that attacks" and "ready to shoot a goblin I see."
[MENTION=2011]KarinsDad[/MENTION] Yeah, you hit the nail on the head about the (fun and friendly) debate we've been having about how cover works. One friend describes it as binary in the grid-oriented sense. While the other takes a more naturalist approach like you. Basically your method is how I handled it BUT without the Perception check to determine if the PC spots goblin before it shoots. I like that, might have to run that by my cohorts and see if it will work for all of us. Thanks!
And yep, I do get that a reaction is sacrificing your action AND reaction in 5e, so it's meant to be a conditionally powerful option.[MENTION=94389]jrowland[/MENTION] Interesting about the 4e using lines of sight to dictate degree of cover. That works in a mostly 2-D environment I suppose.
And yep, I get the difference between "ready to shoot a goblin that attacks" and "ready to shoot a goblin I see."
[MENTION=2011]KarinsDad[/MENTION] Yeah, you hit the nail on the head about the (fun and friendly) debate we've been having about how cover works. One friend describes it as binary in the grid-oriented sense. While the other takes a more naturalist approach like you. Basically your method is how I handled it BUT without the Perception check to determine if the PC spots goblin before it shoots. I like that, might have to run that by my cohorts and see if it will work for all of us. Thanks!
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Zinnger
Explorer
My statement remains completely true and correct. I did not state that the reaction happens *before* the triggering event. I stated that the reaction *interrupts* another creatures turn or action. So if the trigger is set to "shoot the first goblin that I see" then the reaction will happen *after* the trigger (as soon as the PC sees the goblin) and *before* the goblin gets to shoot at the PC. lt requires careful wording on the part of the PC but everything I said is correct.
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