"Rules: Saiyans" by Anubis

[Anubis]

YAY the rules, all the rules *smiles*
Now I can finaly start planing the campaigns.
Anubis I hope you have time to do Majin Vegeta =)
He is vital to the campaign and I don`t trust my self to do him, I tried but he is just getting to overpowered, even for a Saiyan (go figure =).

I'll be getting to Majin Vegeta most likely within the next week. I'll be starting work Monday, I MAY have it done by Tuesday, although I can't make any guarantees. I am aiming for Tuesday though.

As for how powerful he is . . . Well, just keep in mind that he will be more powerful than many deities, so . . . I mean, heck, just looking at the base stats, he could probably beat most of the deities in Deities & Demigods (except for the Greater Deities and maybe some Intermediate Deities), if that tells you anything . . .

Remember, Saiyans are for nearly Epic campaigns already. Super Saiyans are most certainly for Epic campaigns only. (Natural considering any Super Saiyan could single-handedly take out anything in the Monster Manual except for MAYBE Tarrasque!)

Anyway, I am working on the Majin Vegeta conversion. Be warned, he is EXTREMELY powerful. Look for him to be about ECL 80-90, which would make him approximately CR 40 or 41 by the "Rules: Effective Character Levels and Challenge Ratings" that you can find here:

http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=25693

Note that these Saiyans, my list of feats, and the new ECL rules should be used together. If not, the system could easily break down, because the core rules simply are not able to handle Saiyans as-is.

Oh Have you ever read or seen the Anime serie the Guyver?
If you have there is a fan-fic that I realy like called emm "Great war of the Guyvers" there they have this guyver called Anubis that is realy cool =))

Looking forward to more info =)

I've seen the two Guyver movies, but never seen the Anime.

 

[Daelin_Farseer]

Re: Re: Super Saiyajin

Remember though that those failure were prior to his ever becoming a Super Saiyan. For whatever reason, Gohan had more trouble than anyone gaining power.

You didn't make your position clear on this before. It is (obviously) true that once the transformation happens, it can happen again.

Actually, all Super Saiyan forms require training. This will be reflected in the Super Saiyan template.

That is why a Super Saiyan 3 transformation, unlike all others, requires time.

That's circular reasoning. It requires training to achieve a level of power that supports the SSJ powerup, but no amount of training (alone) will allow anyone to transform into the first two versions. The third powerup does not require the same anger trigger...it's a powerup more in line (IMO) with Frieza's transformations...requiring a certain amount of effort, training, and yes, time.

This is a questionable issue at best. Once Vegeta goes Super Saiyan the first time, he never again has any trouble. Trunks and Goten seem to never have trouble in the first place. Basically, since even the series is a bit sporadic on this issue, I am going to disregard it for the sake of simplicity.

As mentioned previously, all this is off camera. We only see Vegita's initial transformation, and then again when he fights against the artificial humans...nothing intermediary. Goten and Trunks are obviously well accustomed to the change...again, we never see their first transformations. I think you're seeing exactly what you want to see...and so am I. I see sufficient evidence in the series to suggest that the SSJ transformation is a skill (after the initial, anger-triggered one), that must be trained before it comes as naturally as our protagonists make it out to be.

I have also disregarded the "middle" levels such as Super Saiyan 2nd Grade, Super Saiyan 3rd Grade, Super Saiyan Full Power, etc. These levels overly complicate matters and are so rarely used that no suitable information about these forms really exist to a great enough extent to warrant a conversion.

This, at least, I fully agree with.

 

[Glorfindel]

Oh cool =) Looking forward to Thuesday =))
Is he going to have the Immortal feat? I know he dosen`t have it in the series but it would seem so right for him, to finaly get his wish =))

When he is done I`m going to try him out against Dragons and such =)

I don`t have the ELH but I know the there is something like Perfect 2 weapon fighting that gives a fighter 4 attacks in his off hand, was just wonduring if Vegeta would have that? Giving him 8 attacks, 10 with Speed.

 

[Anubis]

Re: Re: Re: Super Saiyajin

You didn't make your position clear on this before. It is (obviously) true that once the transformation happens, it can happen again.

Sorry about that. Didn't mean to confuse anything.

That's circular reasoning. It requires training to achieve a level of power that supports the SSJ powerup, but no amount of training (alone) will allow anyone to transform into the first two versions. The third powerup does not require the same anger trigger...it's a powerup more in line (IMO) with Frieza's transformations...requiring a certain amount of effort, training, and yes, time.

All of this is covered in the template. Go take a look, I think you'll be satisfied on this issue. It required slight DM discretion, but I think I have it nailed down pretty well.

As mentioned previously, all this is off camera. We only see Vegita's initial transformation, and then again when he fights against the artificial humans...nothing intermediary. Goten and Trunks are obviously well accustomed to the change...again, we never see their first transformations. I think you're seeing exactly what you want to see...and so am I. I see sufficient evidence in the series to suggest that the SSJ transformation is a skill (after the initial, anger-triggered one), that must be trained before it comes as naturally as our protagonists make it out to be.

Maybe. Maybe not. The only time it is even thought of is during Goku's conversation with Mirai Trunks, and is never against mentioned. Also, since this "training" seems to be more practice than actual training (where it is seen atl east), and since the practice doesn't seem to come from gaining power, than it could not be translated into a skill very well at all, because skills only gain ranks when a level is gained. Since this "practice" doesn't seem to come with power gains under any circumstance, and happens so quickly, I've gotta go with my gut and say it's not a "skill" as per the rules, even if it is a skill by defition. See what I'm saying?

This, at least, I fully agree with.

Oh cool =) Looking forward to Thuesday =))
Is he going to have the Immortal feat? I know he dosen`t have it in the series but it would seem so right for him, to finaly get his wish =))

I'm gonna convert Vegeta as-is, so no, he won't have the Immortality feat. In fact, I don't believe Vegeta EVER gets his with, because he dies of old age by the end of Dragonball GT.

When he is done I`m going to try him out against Dragons and such =)

Vegeta simply can't be challenged by the dragons in the MM. You can go ahead and do it, maybe in a game, just to show off how powerful he is, but only Prismatic Dragons and Force Dragons would have any real chance, or maybe REALLY advanced dragons. Once I've done the conversion, I would be more than happy to perhaps post a sampl creature from the ELH for you to test Vegeta against, if you like.

I don`t have the ELH but I know the there is something like Perfect 2 weapon fighting that gives a fighter 4 attacks in his off hand, was just wonduring if Vegeta would have that? Giving him 8 attacks, 10 with Speed.

Vegeta doesn't use weapons, so he has no need for any such feats. He'll be a Saiyan Warrior 20/Saiyan Elite 40 with the ability to tranform into a Super Saiyan 2. He'll likely have 5 attacks in his normal form and 13 attacks in any of his Super Saiyan forms. My current plans have him at an ECL of 115. Not set in stone yet, but that's how he's looking.

 

[Glorfindel]

He dies *AAARRGGHH* haven`t seen them yet =)

Yeah that would be very cool, to try him out... hmm mayby you would like to do it over a post board? The fight that is =)

What would an ECL 0f 115 be in CR?
13 attack, at what damage?

 

[Immort]

I must say that I appreciated all the energy you put into this. The stat setup is well thought out, thumbs up to you. I alos have just seen the episode where Goku goes SS3 (being limited to what cartoon network deigns to show me).

-Immort

 

[Glorfindel]

Anubis do you DM online?

And for Vegeta could you write down some Tactics, I have never played an epic character before and well to use all these new feats that he will have it will take a few fights until I can use him at his full potential.

What kinda "monster" were you thinking of challenging Majin Vegeta with?

Hihi
Can`t stop jumping around wishing it would be Thuesday.
I can hardly wait =))

 

[Anubis]

He dies *AAARRGGHH* haven`t seen them yet =)

It's not really a spoiler, and you won't get to see it for a very long time, because it doesn't happen until Episode 64 of Dragonball GT, and takes place off-screen. Basically, they go to "100 years in the future", and it says "None of the warriors from that time remain, except for one", and that one is Pan. Of course, Goku is there too, but he's become Immortal or maybe even a deity by that point, no longer a normal fighter. You'd have to see all of Dragonball GT to understand; Episode 64 of GT is the very last Dragonball episode.

Basically, after the Dark Dragon is defeated, the Z Fighters live the rest of their lives in peace and die of old age.

Yeah that would be very cool, to try him out... hmm mayby you would like to do it over a post board? The fight that is =)

UK and I have kinda proven that an online message board battle doesn't work out very well . . . Don't worry, I can just give you the states of a good monster, and you can try it out yourself without another player, or with your gaming group. I don't think I'll be doing anymore online battles anytime soon.

What would an ECL 0f 115 be in CR?
13 attack, at what damage?

CR 44 . . . Damage base would be 1d20.

I must say that I appreciated all the energy you put into this. The stat setup is well thought out, thumbs up to you. I alos have just seen the episode where Goku goes SS3 (being limited to what cartoon network deigns to show me).

-Immort

Thanks! I glad people can enjoy my work!

Anubis do you DM online?

Nope.

And for Vegeta could you write down some Tactics, I have never played an epic character before and well to use all these new feats that he will have it will take a few fights until I can use him at his full potential.

Beat it down, and if that don't work, blast it to bits. Vegeta's battle mentality is pretty simple.

What kinda "monster" were you thinking of challenging Majin Vegeta with?

Hmmm . . . A Hecatoncheires would be beyond his abilities . . . I'd have to look at the ELH to find something suitable. Just to give an idea, though . . . Vecna from Deities & Demigods is ECL 100.

Hihi
Can`t stop jumping around wishing it would be Thuesday.
I can hardly wait =))

 

[Wolvorine]

Re: Re: Wow!

I doubt the skill works either, honestly. Going Super Saiyan never struck me as a skill, but rather a raw talent. How many times did anyone "fail" to go Super Saiyan? None. You equate going Super Saiyan to something like riding a bicycle, when it is more like a matter of "where there's a will, there's a way", like walking or putting your fist through a cinder block.

Three things to keep in mind while reading my response here;
1) I have very limited DBZ knowledge (my kid used to watch it constantly on cartoon network, so I heard a lot of episodes while in the next room)
2) I've only read page 1 of this thread so far.
3) I scanned - but did not carefully read in detail - your writeup.

That in mind, if it's a raw talent and not a skill, should Super-Saiyan be a series of Feats available only to Saiyans?

What I'd be interested in seeing would be a good write-up of Nemmiks.

 

[Silverthrone]

Basically, after the Dark Dragon is defeated, the Z Fighters live the rest of their lives in peace and die of old age.

There is the Future Goku Special that happens after GT.