D&D General Run Away!

[GMMichael]

. . . Three of us got teleported to an unknown section- a 4th/2nd level elf F/M-U, a 3rd level elf M-U, and a 1st level human M-U. Better believe that when we encountered a room full of orcs we retreated. Eventually we were able to find an exit from the dungeon and rendezvous with the bigger portion of the party.

Some people get lost in the mall. I wouldn't feel very good about running after teleporting to an "unknown section." I'd feel better about it if I could sacrifice the 1st level MU to appease the orcs.

 

[Mannahnin]

Some people get lost in the mall. I wouldn't feel very good about running after teleporting to an "unknown section." I'd feel better about it if I could sacrifice the 1st level MU to appease the orcs.

It was the player's first session with the group!

...that might have made it more hilarious if I had thought of it, though. My elf DOES speak Orcish....

 

[Kinematics]

Having been through such a challenge in a relatively recent encounter, I can certainly understand not wanting to run away. Against a dragon, we had the choice of fighting or running away. We ended up choosing to fight, though there were also those at the table to wanted to run.

Part of it is the flash and spectacle. You finally get to fight something crazy like a dragon. How could you not jump at that? Even if, realistically, you should definitely be running.

But once the battle is joined, there's basically no way to run. The dragon can easily outpace anyone in the party (plus legendary actions make that beyond trivial), and has its dragon breath to torch anyone trying to run away.

In addition, this came right after a long run of sneaking through dungeons, where we had to constantly play it careful. The opportunity to just let loose was very freeing. Having to run and hide again at this point would be rather frustrating.

Having said that, I'm inclined to think that the best way to get players in the mindset that running away is an option is to make sure that it's used liberally by the enemy as well. If the enemy creatures always fight to the death, it's clear that that's the "framing" of how combat works in the game. Players will naturally fall into the same mindset.

Someone's earlier suggestion that there needs to be more lead-up to the fight seems like it could be useful in setting the mood as well. If there's a lot of smack talk before the fight starts, where people have time to scope each other out, and figure out who wants to fight and who wants to run, it feels more like emotions can help drive people's actions, rather than pure mechanics.

Edit: Oh, and definitely need more dynamic movement to make it feel like you can run, rather than death of a thousand cuts from the turn-based movement system.

 

[firstkyne]

If players act that way it's the DM's fault. They think the DM won't kill their PC. Probably because they never do. Kill a few. They'll learn and start to run.

I hate that this is sound advice. But, on reflection, this has a lot of truth in it.

 

[firstkyne]

What is the GM's role, if any, in the party deciding to stand or flee?

I thought this post was quite interesting on the subject. Might help you...

The Retreat Action - Homebrew & House Rules - Dungeons & Dragons Discussion - D&D Beyond Forums - D&D Beyond

 

[Celebrim]

Having said that, I'm inclined to think that the best way to get players in the mindset that running away is an option is to make sure that it's used liberally by the enemy as well. If the enemy creatures always fight to the death, it's clear that that's the "framing" of how combat works in the game. Players will naturally fall into the same mindset.

I think you are certainly right. So many GMs get stuck in a pattern where every combat is an ambush by a foe that fights to the death with no quarter. I get why they get into that pattern, but it's a pattern you should try to get away from.

That said, I think the biggest difficulty of implementing this plan is that it's not really any easier for NPCs to run away from PC's than it is for PC's to run away from NPCs. The vast majority of times that NPCs have tried to run away in my games, they get shot in the back by PC's superior ranged firepower and they die anyway. In order for an NPC to successfully run away they need a clever escape plan usually that buys them actions and higher speed than the PCs. You can't just expect NPCs to start running and get away. They need enough of a head start that they can take actions without being directly under attack, they need doors to bar behind them and allies to run to and well... pretty much all the things PCs are going to need to successfully escape. It's a very difficult encounter to design and it does need to be designed.

And I think that's the reason GMs get stuck in the pattern where monsters fight to the death. Because most of the time running away or surrendering or whatever is futile against the PCs anyway, so you might as well try to get some hits in before you die.

And additionally, if most of the time when monsters run away it gives the PCs the advantage, then they are not going to learn the lesson you want. They are going to learn, "Best to get our hits in and maybe hope we get lucky."

 

[Baron Opal II]

It goes back to what I was talking about in my first post.

Forcing a rout is an interesting thing in non-interactive fiction, but the player is the one experiencing it by proxy. The hero you're playing is forced to break and run like Brave Sir Robin and they KNOW it's because either the DM is trying to make it happen or purposefully making things unfair by not following the encounter guidelines.

What is your solution when the dice are cold? Just from chance, the PCs are getting hammered. They should be overcoming from how you balnced the encounter, but for no lack on their part they are losing. What's your solution to that?

The players in my group rarely retreat, but they have when they seriously misjudged the opposition or their dice are cold. (Can't hit, ones and twos on the fireball, &c.)

 

[Li Shenron]

Anyway -- what is your view on PCs fleeing fights? Do you see it happen relatively regularly? Do you design encounters to make it necessary? What is the GM's role, if any, in the party deciding to stand or flee?

It happens in my games certainly more often than average, but it's still less often than 1 battle every 10.

I do have unbeatable encounters, mainly because I like running sandbox-y games where the PCs can choose to go off-track, so if they are nearby a known dragon's lair and decide to check it out while still at low level, they might in fact throw themselves into a combat they cannot "win" in the most common sense i.e. by slaying the monsters. Victory becomes then getting out alive, and maybe with some gain too... they could snatch a piece of treasure from the dragon's hoard for example.

The role I set myself in such a case, is to make sure to telegraph the players about the encounter difficulty if I see they are behaving boldly as if victory is certainly at least possible. I am also not against flat-out telling them a monster's CR if they insist in fighting despite my innuendos.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Anyway -- what is your view on PCs fleeing fights? Do you see it happen relatively regularly? Do you design encounters to make it necessary? What is the GM's role, if any, in the party deciding to stand or flee?

by the rules running stinks.

I can tell stories of TPKs BECUSE I or players under me tried to run. What we have found is "Hey, we want to run away" needs the DM to step back and forget that mechanically it doesn't work.

However I find the OTHER end is the real problem. If I want to have a monster/npc run I need to give them a big boost. If I even manage to start my turn not engaged in melee (good luck) and I double move... maybe I can get away if no one has ranged attacks.

I will share 1 TPK... the encounter was with a warlock (I will back engineer it must have been infernal cause she threw a fireball) and we were already weak as PCs... She dropped a fireball and it hurt us all. We figured we would try to run... but she could fly, had eldritch blast 300ft and a second fireball... she had been sent to kill us the best we could do was run in different directions hoping she could not snipe us all... spoiler alert she was able to snipe us all.

 

[Celebrim]

by the rules running stinks.

The sad part is that this isn't even really a limitation of the rules. In the real world, retreat is the most difficult of all combat maneuvers. Most casualties in a battle occur as one side is trying to retreat. In fact, groups like the US marines are basically taught to assault their way out of ambush rather than try to retreat because at least if you attack into an ambush you might disrupt and shock the attackers enough that they are disorganized or rout. But retreat is hard and making more realistic rules doesn't help.

Incidentally, Gygax seems to have understood this because IIRC in the 1e rules he just gave a flat % chance that the party could run away rather than risking simulating it.