D&D General Run Away!

[Vaalingrade]

Thank you for articulating that. If you are right (and I think you are sort of right) what is the answer: TPK or softball?

I mean, only if you consider treating the game as tailored entertainment and giving the audience what they're there for is 'softball'.

I know there are people who treat the game as if everything has to center around challenge, or 'teaching' the players to do things a certain way, but it doesn't have to be and that's not what everyone is there for. Talk out what people are at the table for to see how to proceed, and if that's not an experience you're comfortable with or willing to do, someone else might be able willing.

 

[el-remmen]

Thank you for articulating that. If you are right (and I think you are sort of right) what is the answer: TPK or softball?

My answer is that when the PCs are in serious trouble I try to think through and imagine a way where the foes might not outright kill them and lead to a TPK. That does not mean I will find one, and a TPK is never fully off the table - but I believe in playing the foes fairly and realistically challenging while rooting for the players. So if I can imagine a way to keep them alive that both me and the players won't think of as "cheap," I run with it. I don't think of this as "softballing."

Anyway, have you seen fast pitch softball? That's no joke.

 

[Reynard]

I mean, only if you consider treating the game as tailored entertainment and giving the audience what they're there for is 'softball'.

I know there are people who treat the game as if everything has to center around challenge, or 'teaching' the players to do things a certain way, but it doesn't have to be and that's not what everyone is there for. Talk out what people are at the table for to see how to proceed, and if that's not an experience you're comfortable with or willing to do, someone else might be able willing.

This thread isn't really about my table and my situation. that was just an example. I have been playing with these folks for, well, ever in some cases and they all know the score.

 

[el-remmen]

This thread isn't really about my table and my situation. that was just an example. I have been playing with these folks for, well, ever in some cases and they all know the score.

There is a tendency on these boards - esp. by some particular posters - to approach any topic as a problem to be solved. As evidence see my back and forths in my "All My Encounters are Deadly" thread.

 

[payn]

My answer is that when the PCs are in serious trouble I try to think through and imagine a way where the foes might not outright kill them and lead to a TPK. That does not mean I will find one, and a TPK is never fully off the table - but I believe in playing the foes fairly and realistically challenging while rooting for the players. So if I can imagine a way to keep them alive that both me and the players won't think of as "cheap," I run with it. I don't think of this as "softballing."

Anyway, have you seen fast pitch softball? That's no joke.

Oh man that reminds me of my Father who is unfortunately very sick right now. He is in the Minnesota fast pitch softball hall of fame. Its a thing, trust me, I didnt think so either.

The comparison is very apt though. Some folks want to just get together after work toss a few balls and have a few beers. Its very casual and chill and just about any skill level is welcome. Others are very competitive and take the game to another level. You need to be able to keep up and pull your weight. They too, like fun and beers, but you better be bringing your A game when you show up.

 

[Vaalingrade]

This thread isn't really about my table and my situation. that was just an example. I have been playing with these folks for, well, ever in some cases and they all know the score.

I promise I'm not trying to be mean here but... do you?

You've told them how you're going to do things, but are you listening to them about how they're going to do things?

 

[Reynard]

I promise I'm not trying to be mean here but... do you?

You've told them how you're going to do things, but are you listening to them about how they're going to do things?

Seriously.

 

[MGibster]

DMs tend to try to be authors at least at some point in our careers. We are always looking to generate conflict and drama. A hopeless battle where the heroes break and flee, and all is lost to us feels moving and romantic and overall like a good moment.

I would have to agree with you. I'm thinking of Star Wars: A New Hope, where are heroes are on the run from storm troopers in an effort to escape the Death Star. In a D&D game, the players would most likely prefer if their characters smashed through all the storm troopers and had a final battle with the evil space wizard before escaping. But as the audience watching the movie, we're fine with the heroes evading the entire time and making their escape because its exciting.

 

[MarkB]

I would have to agree with you. I'm thinking of Star Wars: A New Hope, where are heroes are on the run from storm troopers in an effort to escape the Death Star. In a D&D game, the players would most likely prefer if their characters smashed through all the storm troopers and had a final battle with the evil space wizard before escaping. But as the audience watching the movie, we're fine with the heroes evading the entire time and making their escape because its exciting.

It's a matter of which type of story you're telling just as much as how you're experiencing it. I've felt that "rather die than run away" mindset as a player in D&D, very much so - but in, say, Blades in the Dark, that viewpoint would seem quite alien. We're playing the underdogs, of course we run away when the guards show up in force!

It may be a combination of that different narrative as well as the different game mechanics that represent it. In BitD, running away from the guards is resolved using exactly the same mechanics as fighting the guards, so there's no real disconnect when transitioning from one to the other. And gameplay is experienced at a more abstracted level, with each roll resolving larger portions of narrative, so it doesn't feel quite so zoomed-in on what you're going through in-character.

 

[Shiroiken]

As a DM, my players are more than willing to run away. They do this because they know I'm more than willing to kill every PC without hesitation (and often with a grin on my face). I'm the "killer DM," who doesn't design encounters, but rather entire adventures. I give out XP for exploration and social encounters as well, since this de-emphasizes the focus on combat as the solution.

As for the mechanics of running away, I use a modified chase rules. The chase is not based purely on speed, but involves contested group Con/Athletics checks (individuals can choose to leave allies behind). Winning several checks causes the fleeing party to escape, while failing checks resumes combat without the ability to flee a second time. Higher speed and other moving bonus adjusts the number of checks needed to succeed/fail.

 

[Vaalingrade]

The funny thing about the idea of forcing players to run is that one of the seminal Geek Films, Monty Python and the Holy Grail plays the idea of medieval fantasy heroes running away like scared children for comedy like four times.

 

[MarkB]

The funny thing about the idea of forcing players to run is that one of the seminal Geek Films, Monty Python and the Holy Grail plays the idea of medieval fantasy heroes running away like scared children for comedy like four times.

Yeah, but nobody wants to actually be Brave Sir Robin. Especially if there's a bard in the party.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Yeah, but nobody wants to actually be Brave Sir Robin. Especially if there's a bard in the party.

Absolutely true.

And that's the thing:

Some people feel that this is something so important and dramatic and meaningful that they will straight up murder characters until they get the desired effect, sort of blissfully unaware that the players are all vaguely hearing 'bravely ran away, away' in the back of their heads whenever it happens.

IF someone asked me why my character didn't run, I'd ask them if they'd like me to soil my armor too.

 

[Charlaquin]

Seems like a cop-out to just drop things when the players all yell, "Run away".
"You all manage to flee to safety and the monster just slithers back to its lair." I guess the DM could narrate some of the fleeing or have the players roleplay some of the escape.

In B/X, monsters explicitly wouldn’t pursue the PCs if they broke line of sight.

 

[tomBitonti]

I've found that mechanics are missing or just not your friend:

• Hostility can break out without the party having any time to assess their foes.
• Spending time to assess yields, what? The game doesn't have good tools for PCs to evaluate relative power levels. Or, doesn't convey aggression levels very well.
• There is usually no posturing phase. A lot of confrontation type combats should start with displays of strength and posturing.
• Unless hurrying is absolutely necessary, a party advancing into an unknown area should be scouting continuously. And many times should react to a confrontation by backing up to a safe position to evaluate their foe. Rushing into combat with unknown foes is very risky.
• The basic encounter loop really works against the careful approach. The basic encounter steps seem to be: Hostiles move into range of each other. Position is determined and initiative is rolled. Combat ensues.
• Often, by design, no assessment is necessary: the opponents are selected to be within a range that the party can handle, plus or minus the encounter being "easy", "normal", or "hard", with success expected almost all of the time, and with a "good" result being few resources being expended and a "poor" result being extra resources were expended.

Tom Bitonti

 

[Charlaquin]

D&D rules, while varying be edition, are pretty antagonistic toward fleeing. Opportunity attacks, slow movement compared to ranged attacks, monsters faster than the slowest in the party - lots of "take lots of damage as you try to retreat, maybe die anyway".

Yeah, this is a significant barrier to flight being a viable tactic. Additionally, it can be very difficult to tell when you’re in a situation where you need to run away. In my experience it’s usually only in retrospect that you realize “we should probably have retreated two rounds ago,” and by that time you’re probably going to get TPKd anyway if you try to retreat. So, might as well keep fighting and hope you get enough lucky rolls and the DM gets enough unlucky ones that you somehow pull through.

 

[payn]

Yeah, this is a significant barrier to flight being a viable tactic. Additionally, it can be very difficult to tell when you’re in a situation where you need to run away. In my experience it’s usually only in retrospect that you realize “we should probably have retreated two rounds ago,” and by that time you’re probably going to get TPKd anyway if you try to retreat. So, might as well keep fighting and hope you get enough lucky rolls and the DM gets enough unlucky ones that you somehow pull through.

I've never thought about it straight up like this, but believe I have had better luck fighting to the death than fleeing. As you suggest, often the point of no return is not too visible. Hard to tell if you can still make it or not. Had a few TPKs, but also had a handful of last man standing with a handful of HPs and won the day.

 

[iserith]

Yeah, this is a significant barrier to flight being a viable tactic. Additionally, it can be very difficult to tell when you’re in a situation where you need to run away. In my experience it’s usually only in retrospect that you realize “we should probably have retreated two rounds ago,” and by that time you’re probably going to get TPKd anyway if you try to retreat. So, might as well keep fighting and hope you get enough lucky rolls and the DM gets enough unlucky ones that you somehow pull through.

And I hate being the guy who says "We need to run away..." and then everyone just doubles down and we manage to survive. Then I have to survive the gauntlet of "I told you so's."

 

[UngainlyTitan]

I've never thought about it straight up like this, but believe I have had better luck fighting to the death than fleeing. As you suggest, often the point of no return is not too visible. Hard to tell if you can still make it or not. Had a few TPKs, but also had a handful of last man standing with a handful of HPs and won the day.

The make running away really a thing there would need morale rules applying to the party. Something along the lines of if party reaches X state then the PCs have 2 turns before they break and run. Organise a withdrawal and activate the disengage mechanics.

 

[Vaalingrade]

The make running away really a thing there would need morale rules applying to the party. Something along the lines of if party reaches X state then the PCs have 2 turns before they break and run. Organise a withdrawal and activate the disengage mechanics.

I mean, making the thing people don't want to do mechanically mandatory is certainly one way to do it.