Ryan Dancey Interview and the OGL

That is fine.

You can claim that I don't know what I am talking about, and I can simply make the same claim towards you. The fact that all history of the issue supports my side clearly puts the burden on you. A burden you have completely failed to meet.

Being as you have not even approached establishing evidence to support a position that all precedent disputes, I see no further value in discussion.

Your statement that you can not trademark a game system shows how you just don't get it. (as your prior self-contradictory statement did)

You don't need to to trademark ther game if you can trademark fundamental elements of it. (Such as the name, which alone destroys your initial claim that you could put the name on the cover of your works)

Hey, go ahead and try your idea.

Good luck to you.
 
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Keep it nice, please.

If you feel the need to insult somebody - don't. If you can't post without insulting somebody, then don't post.

If you disagree with someone, then say so politely.

This isn't RPG.net. :)
 

How did I miss this thread! My favorite--people arguing about copyright law!

I am a lawyer. And I run Necromancer Games. I have probably written more mainstream products under the OGL/d20 licenses than a good number of folks, and thus have grappled with the issues in a very real world sense a good number of times. So here are just a few thoughts. Take them for what they are worth. I am not pretending to be an expert or the only source of authority on this issue. Note, this is not legal advice. You should also know that this area of intellectual property is relatively unsettled. There are many diverging opinions on the matter. It is a complex area.

"1- You cannot copyright OR trademark a game system."

Partially true. This is an often-cited general proposition by both sides in the OGL discussion. But, as with many generalized statements, it isnt always controlling of the specific issue. You cannot copyright the rules to, say, poker. It has never been established if the full system of a role playing game (which many would argue is different from poker) would be considered the same as poker. Plus, unlike poker, even if the system is not copyrightable, a system as complex as an RPG may likely contain discrete elements that are themselves copyrightable. As for trademarks, it is correct in general that a system of rules cannot be trademarked. That isnt what trademark protects. The name of the system can be.

"2- You could write a book which was compatible with D&D without violating intellectual property law. You would have to be careful of trademarks, but it could be done. (see point D.08 on the link I earlier mentioned)"

This is most likely wrong, since your premise is based on the "you cant copyright a game system" is also rather broad. I do not believe you could write a book (by which I believe you mean a supplement or module or even a novel) which was "compatible" with D&D, unless you meant compatible in a really generic sense.

Most people want to be compatible in a commercially relevant sense--they want purchasers to know or clearly understand that their book can be used with D&D. Once that happens, you do enter into possible legal issues.

You could certainly write a novel where "wizards" are casting "magic missiles" and everyone would get it.

You could not say "this novel is based on the D&D game" without getting into hot water.

Here is the core of the problem: holders of copyright and trademarks have a duty to defend their marks so that they do not fall into the public domain. That means any significant infringement or percieved infringement is going to draw a law suit--the holder of the mark has to do so to protect their intellectual property or mark.

Bottom line: without the OGL/d20 license, Hasbro would be forced to sue infringing products. Small time companies cant handle that. That isnt to say Hasbro would be wrong or malicious to sue. It is a business necessity. Hasbro is as unsure of copyright law as everyone else is at this point. And if there is a percieved violation they can run the risk of not suing and losing their protection. So please dont think Hasbro suing means they are evil or trying to hold people down.

"3- You could then say "This book is compatible with Dungeons and Dragons." As long as "Dungeons and Dragons" was in exactly the same type as everything else, legally that is a statement of fact, just like when you buy Civilization III and it tells you what operating systems it works on. They aren't violating Trademark either unless they use the little four-colored windows icon."

That is not necessarily correct and is a vast oversimplification. This issue is way more complex then "hey, a game says it runs on Windows so I can say my book is compatible with D&D". It would depend quite a bit on the content of your book and what it was attempting to do. I cant summarize in a forum response a book full of copyright law, but suffice it to say that is an oversimplification.

"4- The OGL makes point 2 and point 3 alot easier, but if you wanted to do points 2 and 3 without it and you weren't small enough to just be smothered by WoTC or Hasbro in a court of law, then you could."

Again, incorrect. See above. Plus, please notemy above comments that Hasbro would not be smothering you for some evil motive necessarily, they have their own business interests.

The correct part of this is that you can, in general, do 2 and 3 as you say much easier with the OGL/d20 license. You still cant say "compatible with D&D". I agree that you can say "requires the use of the 3E PHB, published by WotC". In fact, as of the new license changes you MUST say that. But that is not the same as saying "compatible with D&D". It is my hope--and my goal--that the d20 logo comes to mean that. I believe it has. I was really worried early in d20 that non-D&D games would spring up with the d20 logo, diluting that d20=D&D connection.

"5- The next time you post on a thread with the central position that I'm lying don't bother, I'll just be skipping over your posts from now on."

I guess I dont have to address this one. :)

For more on the copyright issues, you may want to go to the opengaming foundation site and join the relevant discussion groups there. This issue is discussed with great frequency and vigor by many parties--professionals and gamers alike.

What the OGL and d20 licenses do for you (and WotC) is this:

You can make products that you can come as close to compatible as allowable. WotC, in turn, gets supporting products that hopefully drive their core products.

Plus (here is the legal part) WotC can say "here is how you can use my content without me having to worry about me suing you because I would otherwise be required to sue you to protect what I believe is my protectable copyright content."

Hope that helps.

Clark
 
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There is no doubt you give up some rights that you arguably have under normal copyright law when you use the OGL. But no one can say exactly what the scope of those rights are And since it is unclear, WotC would be forced to protect what they percieve as their IP. That is both the problem and the benefit of the OGL/d20 license. With clear parameters, WotC doesnt have to worry about having to sue and you dont have to worry about being sued.

Of course, publishers need to be sure they are sailing in this "safe harbor."

WotC has been very cool about the whole thing so far. Last GenCon there were discussions about getting people compliant. Ryan even talked to a few companies specifically. So I dont think it is unreasonable at all for him to expect better compliance by this GenCon.

Clark
 

rounser said:
What you consider good business sense doesn't necessarily rule in the real world.
...which could be one of the reasons for which a sizable number of small and not-so-small gaming companies regularly fail. It's a pity, really.
I was speculating about a motive for not using the OGL, because some people were saying "I can't understand why anybody wouldn't want to use the OGL".
I wasn't attacking you! :) I agree that it could be a motive for some, I just said that I think it's a dumb one.
 

Orcus said:
There is no doubt you give up some rights that you arguably have under normal copyright law when you use the OGL. But no one can say exactly what the scope of those rights are And since it is unclear, WotC would be forced to protect what they percieve as their IP. That is both the problem and the benefit of the OGL/d20 license. With clear parameters, WotC doesnt have to worry about having to sue and you dont have to worry about being sued.

Of course, publishers need to be sure they are sailing in this "safe harbor."

WotC has been very cool about the whole thing so far. Last GenCon there were discussions about getting people compliant. Ryan even talked to a few companies specifically. So I dont think it is unreasonable at all for him to expect better compliance by this GenCon.

Clark

Thanks Orcus.

I am completely in tune with everything you said.

(Here is hoping I never say that in game)
 

Axiomatic Unicorn said:
I don't see how anybody's interpretation of the OGL is slightly relevant to the concept of intellectual property.

If you claim that a lawyer told you that you can ignore intellectual property rights, either they are jerking your chain or you are jerking ours.

I'm not going to get into the debate, but I'll just add in that my understanding of the IP issues around RPGs matches that of EOL (and his lawyer). TSR/WOTC can and have trademarked the name "Dungeons & Dragons", the specific character names and geographical locations and descriptions, etc. They can copyright the precise language printed in a book. But they cannot legally assert IP rights over the abstracted mechanism of playing the game, nor would a court rightfully prevent compatible publications from being made.
 

Orcus said:
You should also know that this area of intellectual property is relatively unsettled. There are many diverging opinions on the matter. It is a complex area.
Exactly, I think it's clear that what I was saying is one of the possible legal opinions. Not a vicious attempt at trolling or an attempt to complete ignore intellectual property law.

"1- You cannot copyright OR trademark a game system."

Partially true.
I think you would probably agree as an attorney that if something is partially true, it would generally end up being the person who threw the most money and resources at the legal battle who ended up prevailing. This is generally not going to be the small publisher.

"2- You could write a book which was compatible with D&D without violating intellectual property law. You would have to be careful of trademarks, but it could be done. (see point D.08 on the link I earlier mentioned)"

This is most likely wrong, since your premise is based on the "you cant copyright a game system" is also rather broad. I do not believe you could write a book (by which I believe you mean a supplement or module or even a novel) which was "compatible" with D&D, unless you meant compatible in a really generic sense.
"Most likely wrong" is not completely illegal by any stretch. Does anyone remember Role-Aids back in the 80's or I.C.E. supplying what were essentially D&D stats with their creatures. Obviously these companies thought there was enough legal ambiguity to give it a try. I don't recommend it and I agree that Hasbro would be expected and within their rights to take it to court, but if it was against an opponent with equal or greater resources I don't think they'd be sure of the outcome.

Bottom line: without the OGL/d20 license, Hasbro would be forced to sue infringing products. Small time companies cant handle that. That isnt to say Hasbro would be wrong or malicious to sue. It is a business necessity. Hasbro is as unsure of copyright law as everyone else is at this point. And if there is a percieved violation they can run the risk of not suing and losing their protection. So please dont think Hasbro suing means they are evil or trying to hold people down.
That was exactly my point small time companies couldn't handle it. I don't think it means that Hasbro is evil, my point is this, that the whole point is legally ambigious enough that if you didn't want to use the OGL and had legal resources equal to or greater than WoTC/Hasbro it wouldn't be legal suicide to challenge the whole issue in court, and that one of the purposes of the OGL was to make a pre-emptive strike against this happening.

"3- You could then say "This book is compatible with Dungeons and Dragons." As long as "Dungeons and Dragons" was in exactly the same type as everything else, legally that is a statement of fact, just like when you buy Civilization III and it tells you what operating systems it works on. They aren't violating Trademark either unless they use the little four-colored windows icon."

That is not necessarily correct and is a vast oversimplification. This issue is way more complex then "hey, a game says it runs on Windows so I can say my book is compatible with D&D". It would depend quite a bit on the content of your book and what it was attempting to do. I cant summarize in a forum response a book full of copyright law, but suffice it to say that is an oversimplification.
"Not necessarily correct" doesn't sound like something I'd like to take it to the bank. It is something of an oversimplfication, but after explaining the whole thing to thing to the chief IP attorney at Parsons, Behle & Latimer that was his legal opinion. I'd have you give him a call, but I'm pretty sure he'd charge me for it.

"4- The OGL makes point 2 and point 3 alot easier, but if you wanted to do points 2 and 3 without it and you weren't small enough to just be smothered by WoTC or Hasbro in a court of law, then you could."

Again, incorrect. See above. Plus, please notemy above comments that Hasbro would not be smothering you for some evil motive necessarily, they have their own business interests.
Smothered was a poor choice of words. What I should have rather said is what I said above, "that if you didn't want to use the OGL and had legal resources equal to or greater than WoTC/Hasbro it wouldn't be legal suicide to challenge the whole issue in court.

"5- The next time you post on a thread with the central position that I'm lying don't bother, I'll just be skipping over your posts from now on."

I guess I dont have to address this one. :)
I kind of hope that you would have since it seems to me that you even though don't 100% agree with my position it is nevertheless a tenable legal position. Not me posting on too little sleep.

For more on the copyright issues, you may want to go to the opengaming foundation site and join the relevant discussion groups there. This issue is discussed with great frequency and vigor by many parties--professionals and gamers alike.
I am.

What the OGL and d20 licenses do for you (and WotC) is this:

You can make products that you can come as close to compatible as allowable. WotC, in turn, gets supporting products that hopefully drive their core products.

Plus (here is the legal part) WotC can say "here is how you can use my content without me having to worry about me suing you because I would otherwise be required to sue you to protect what I believe is my protectable copyright content."

Hope that helps.

Clark
My contention is also and you seem to be supporting this with your post. That WoTC is also saying, "We don't have to sue you in an area of intellectual property law which is complex and where not all parties agree, where there's a chance a precedent could be set which would be unfavorable to us.
 

dcollins said:


I'm not going to get into the debate, but I'll just add in that my understanding of the IP issues around RPGs matches that of EOL (and his lawyer). TSR/WOTC can and have trademarked the name "Dungeons & Dragons", the specific character names and geographical locations and descriptions, etc. They can copyright the precise language printed in a book. But they cannot legally assert IP rights over the abstracted mechanism of playing the game, nor would a court rightfully prevent compatible publications from being made.

And everything you stated is fine.

Because to actually publish a trully compatible product would require that you go beyond "abstracted mechanisms".

The OGL d20L provides 3rd parties with the option of taking rights and privledges that they dot not otherwise have available.

To say that WoTC has not given something away, is simply wrong.
I am certain they expect to benefit in the long run, but that does not change the fact that they have given something away.
 

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