SAGA Jedi, spells/maneuvers only once per encounter: in or out?

[RangerWickett]

I've been playing Star Wars Saga for about two months now, and the only real problems we have with it are that, a) you can't bull rush without a feat, and b) Jedi can only use their abilities once per encounter.

We understand that it fosters variety if they can't rely on the same trick over and over again, but my scoundrel PC with his blaster just shoots round after round. And I guess it might be meant to avert repetitive use of high-powered abilities, but we don't think they're overpowered. Mostly we just think it's silly that the Jedi can't shove someone twice in the same fight.

By the way, if my scoundrel became force sensitive, he'd be better at shoving people around than if he took the 'bull rush' feat.

So, WotC folks, does 4e limit spellcasters to using each spell once per encounter? Ditto for 'martial maneuvers' or whatever it is fighters get? Because we thought that was pretty silly in Book of Nine Swords too.

And will I be able to bull rush?

 

[Green Knight]

The designers have said that every PC will get abilities that're either "Per Day", "Per Encounter", or "At Will". They've also said that a Wizard who uses all his Per Day spells will be at about 80% of his power. They've also said that "a wizard should never have to rely on a crossbow because he's out of spells".

What I take from all that is the following: All Wizard spells have be either "Per Day", "Per Encounter", or "At Will". So the Wizard will likely ALWAYS have a spell he can fling at an enemy (Hence "a wizard should never have to rely on a crossbow because he's out of spells). Likely Magic Missile and similar spells. More powerful spells will be Per Encounter, and the most powerful spells will be Per Day.

The same is likely true of Combat Maneuvers. There'll be a couple that're At Will, some that're Per Encounter, and the really bad-ass stuff will be Per Day.

No clue about Bull Rush, though.

 

[GoodKingJayIII]

b) Jedi can only use their abilities once per encounter.

Hm. That's really not true. There are a number of ways to renew powers in your Force suite. Anything from spending a Force point (read: action point) to having the Force Focus talent to rolling a natural 20 and restoring your entire suite of powers.

I suspect that even if there are a lot of "per encounter" abilities for spellcasters, you're going to have opportunities to renew those abilities during an encounter.

 

[RigaMortus2]

In addition to what GoodKingJayIII said, you can also select the same force power more than once (unlike ToB maneuvers). So if you want to Force Slam more than once, you can do so.

 

[Dragonblade]

This is the exactly the problem I had with Saga too. There is a talent to renew your Force Powers, but it takes a whole round and restores only one power. For sitting out of combat for a whole round, you should get ALL your powers back. And the regaining one power by concentrating for a round should just be a standard ability that does not require a talent.

Or you have to spend a Force point to renew your powers. The problem I have with that is that Force points are only regained when you level. I hate this as a GM, because it basically means I am forced to level the party at a rate I may not want them to level so they can regain a critical resource. I hate this as a player because I am totally at the mercy of my GM's preferred rate of level advancement when it comes to regaining a resource that is critical to my character. Not a problem with a good GM, but not all GMs are created equal.

If force points could renew at a rate that did not require leveling up, then Saga would be perfect.

So WotC, please NO resources that require leveling up to regain!! If D&D uses some kind of Action/Force point mechanic, please don't make it so that it recharges only when levelling up.

 

[Shayuri]

Indeedly doo! And don't forget the ability that lets you get back Force Points spent in combat time. So if you have that twice, you can spend up to 2 force points in combat that you get back right after it's all over. Consequence-free, in other words.

Plenty of little things you can do.

In that vein, I don't think magic is going to be just like Saga Force powers, though it's likely that Saga provides a glimpse at how the per-encounter abilities will work. Magic however seems to span the entire range of "at will, per-encounter, and per day" abilities available to magic-using classes though. There's even some indication that spell memorization, while not nearly as critical, will still constitute some of a mage's powers.

Don't panic yet. Plenty of time for that when the details start coming out.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Or you have to spend a Force point to renew your powers. The problem I have with that is that Force points are only regained when you level. I hate this as a GM, because it basically means I am forced to level the party at a rate I may not want them to level so they can regain a critical resource. I hate this as a player because I am totally at the mercy of my GM's preferred rate of level advancement when it comes to regaining a resource that is critical to my character. Not a problem with a good GM, but not all GMs are created equal.

If force points could renew at a rate that did not require leveling up, then Saga would be perfect

Yes, I think force/action points that renew only per level isn't a good idea. And it absolutely doesn't fit in a system that tries to reduce the # of abilities that are based on uses per day.

There are some corner cases in Saga where you have to adjust (Dark Side Point reduction for example), but I would otherwise suggest house-ruling the force point recovery mechanic. Probably set a maximum amount of force points per day, and add a daily regeneration rate.

 

[GoodKingJayIII]

here is a talent to renew your Force Powers, but it takes a whole round and restores only one power. For sitting out of combat for a whole round, you should get ALL your powers back.

No, don't agree with that either. Our dedicated Force user is a pretty nasty SOB, and he doesn't even have Skill Focus yet. As my players get higher level and defenses start outstripping skills, things will even out. But it should not be so easy to regain force powers. They are, in a word, awesome. They should be limited in some way; otherwise there's no reason to not play a Force user.

So WotC, please NO resources that require leveling up to regain!! If D&D uses some kind of Action/Force point mechanic, please don't make it so that it recharges only when levelling up.

I don't get this. Why are people so stingy with action points? They're meant to be used, aren't they? As someone mentioned earlier, there are a few methods of regaining Force points after an encounter. (Granted, they're only open to Force users but that could easily be expanded in DnD.) We may very well find the same in 4e. Or we may find that action points aren't part of the core at all, because that's Eberron's shtick.

The "not knowing when the GM is going to let me level" is something else. It's not a problem with the rules, it's an issue with the way the game is run. I try and be pretty formulaic with leveling, but I realize that's not everyone's cup of tea, but still.

Take Eberron for example. At 1st level, you get 5 action points. Let's say you use one action point per session. Does it really take people more than 5 sessions to get to 2nd level?

 

[Henry]

Or you have to spend a Force point to renew your powers. The problem I have with that is that Force points are only regained when you level. I hate this as a GM, because it basically means I am forced to level the party at a rate I may not want them to level so they can regain a critical resource. I hate this as a player because I am totally at the mercy of my GM's preferred rate of level advancement when it comes to regaining a resource that is critical to my character. Not a problem with a good GM, but not all GMs are created equal.

Why not award Force points for good play during the game? I do this and it works very well. I don't do it all the time, but enough to where players are encouraged to do the actions I award force points for more often.

I had one Jedi with a dark past (started play with 1 dark side point) who possesses Force Grip. About once per session, I'll slip him a note saying that I'll award him 1 additional force point if he uses his force grip RIGHT NOW on an NPC. The force point is used up recovering the force grip, and that's that. He's taken me up on it more than once, and he gets Dark side points for it, but doesn't care. If he doesn't spend time atoning, he's going to lose his character - but meanwhile, the rest of the group has to worry about one person growing darker and darker right in front of their eyes.

I've also awarded TWO force points when they used a Destiny point to jump right in front of an innocent and take a lethal blast shot. Great example of play, it deserved at least a couple of points, almost as much as you can turn in a destiny point to get more force points for.

The idea started with Spycraft for me, and I've carried it into Star Wars.

 

[ProtoClone]

I have never played the Saga rules but I understand the what people are saying. Jedi seem to have the ability to use the force unlimited numbers of time per day, per encounter. So why can't they, in a fair and balanced way, be able to do the same. The idea of points per day actually seems like the best and most fair method of solving this.