Sage Advice: Plane and world hopping (includes how Eberron and Ravnica fit in D&D cosmology)

[Hussar]

As was mentioned before, the problem with Planescape is that it tells every other setting that they are wrong. Full stop. Krynn had no Hell (at least not until MUCH later, after TSR decided to mash all their settings together). Meaning that everything to do with Hell did not exist in Krynn. There was no Asmodeus in Krynn.

Which makes a lot of sense since it would be kinda tricky to have Asmodeus and Takhisis in the same setting.

Then, along comes Planescape and says, NOPE. Every setting MUST FIT into the One True Cosmology. Even Eberron, while it has a mini-cosmology, is still forced into the square peg of the greater cosmology.

Which means all those gods and demon lords and devil lords and whatnot of all those other settings are sitting side by side with all the gods and demon lords and devil lords of EVERY other setting. Hell must be a really, really busy place. How exactly does Takhisis co-exist with Demogorgon and Asmodeus and Tyr?

The shoehorning of the setting did no one a favor. You are forcing all this extra stuff onto settings where it really doesn't do any good. And, there is the other issue - every publication MUST adhere to the Planescape model. Demons can't come from another planet. They MUST come from the Abyss. Devils don't live under volcanoes. They MUST come from Hell. And the only real Abyss and Hell are the ones found in Planescape and the Great Wheel.

It baffles me that people are so invested in forcing this tired old way of doing things and are so dead set against any originality coming into the game.

 

[SkidAce]

I agree with [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION] on the implications if you buy into the Planescape setting.

If you don't use it (I don't) then many of those things are not true.

And, possibly, WotC could publish a setting, or adventure that didn't use or even mention Planescape.

 

[Imaro]

As was mentioned before, the problem with Planescape is that it tells every other setting that they are wrong. Full stop. Krynn had no Hell (at least not until MUCH later, after TSR decided to mash all their settings together). Meaning that everything to do with Hell did not exist in Krynn. There was no Asmodeus in Krynn.

Look I know you like to rage against Planescape as some kind of evil overlord setting that forced other settings under it's cosmology...but what you are stating above is just wrong. Krynn was part of the Great Wheel cosmology way before Planescape came along. Just a few examples include... the 1e Manual of the planes stating Takhisis and Tiamat are the same being. There being Darklords who originated on Krynn in Ravenloft, which was published 4 years before Planescape was, The Wizard Three articles in Dragon which also predated Planescape. Sorry but Dragonlance was always connected to the Great Wheel, and it's inhabitants were originally portrayed as not knowing about the greater cosmology they were actually a part of... that is until 3e retroactively gave DL it's own separate cosmology.

Which makes a lot of sense since it would be kinda tricky to have Asmodeus and Takhisis in the same setting.

Yep as tricky as Tasselhoff Burrfoot teaming up with Demogorgon to stop Magus... Oh wait that actually did happen.

Then, along comes Planescape and says, NOPE. Every setting MUST FIT into the One True Cosmology. Even Eberron, while it has a mini-cosmology, is still forced into the square peg of the greater cosmology.

But that's not what Planescape as a setting actually does at all. The denizens of Sigil could be just as or more mistaken about what they believe to be the "true" nature of the planes as they believe the inhabitants of DL, FR Eberron or Dark Sun (when they actually have the luxury of contemplating it) are.

Which means all those gods and demon lords and devil lords and whatnot of all those other settings are sitting side by side with all the gods and demon lords and devil lords of EVERY other setting. Hell must be a really, really busy place. How exactly does Takhisis co-exist with Demogorgon and Asmodeus and Tyr?

You mean Tiamat... right??

The shoehorning of the setting did no one a favor. You are forcing all this extra stuff onto settings where it really doesn't do any good. And, there is the other issue - every publication MUST adhere to the Planescape model.

Emphasis mine...Do you mean the Great Wheel... as in 1e's Great Wheel??

Demons can't come from another planet. They MUST come from the Abyss.

Sure they can, the layers of the Abyss are infinite I'm sure some of them hold entire other-planets and I guarantee nothing in the Planescape Campaign setting says this is impossible...

Devils don't live under volcanoes. They MUST come from Hell.

I'm sure there are volcanoes in Hell that they can live under... and again Planescape doesn't say this is impossible.

And the only real Abyss and Hell are the ones found in Planescape and the Great Wheel.

Wait so which is it... The Great Wheel or Planescape??

It baffles me that people are so invested in forcing this tired old way of doing things and are so dead set against any originality coming into the game.

Preference baffles you? Well I can only say I personally find Planescape to be one of the most intriguing, interesting and cool places TSR published to run a camapign in... certainly no more tired, rehashed and lacking in originality than it's continuously published pseudo-europe settings that vary only in slightly tweaked ways. But hey different strokes for different folks.

 

[cbwjm]

Yep as tricky as Tasselhoff Burrfoot teaming up with Demogorgon to stop Magus... Oh wait that actually did happen.

Really? What was this in, I must read it!

 

[cbwjm]

On the point about demons not being able to come from another planet, Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes actually talks about demon incursions taking over an entire world so it sounds like in 5e at least demons actually can come from another planet.

 

[Imaro]

Really? What was this in, I must read it!

It was in Dragon Magazin #85... a short story called " A Stone's Throw Away" by Roger E. Moore... and it also predates Planescape.

 

[cbwjm]

It was in Dragon Magazin #85... a short story called " A Stone's Throw Away" by Roger E. Moore... and it also predates Planescape.

Thanks, I'll be looking that up once I get home.

 

[Hussar]

I agree with [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION] on the implications if you buy into the Planescape setting.

If you don't use it (I don't) then many of those things are not true.

And, possibly, WotC could publish a setting, or adventure that didn't use or even mention Planescape.

Which, to me, would be the best way. Divorce Planescape from the rest of the game, in the same way that every other setting is divorced from every other setting. IF you want to play Planescape, cool, go for it. Just stop forcing every other setting to adhere to Planescape concepts.

Look I know you like to rage against Planescape as some kind of evil overlord setting that forced other settings under it's cosmology...but what you are stating above is just wrong. Krynn was part of the Great Wheel cosmology way before Planescape came along. Just a few examples include... the 1e Manual of the planes stating Takhisis and Tiamat are the same being. There being Darklords who originated on Krynn in Ravenloft, which was published 4 years before Planescape was, The Wizard Three articles in Dragon which also predated Planescape. Sorry but Dragonlance was always connected to the Great Wheel, and it's inhabitants were originally portrayed as not knowing about the greater cosmology they were actually a part of... that is until 3e retroactively gave DL it's own separate cosmology.

Nope, not officially. None of the Ravenloft stuff is actually canon in Dragonlance. It's one take, but, sorry, no, Soth never left Krynn according to DL. Krynn was never part of the Great Wheel. That was stuff that was bolted on later. In Krynn, Takhisis is the Queen of the Abyss. There are no other greater beings in the Abyss than Takhisis. At least in that setting. And Hell, and Gehenna and all the rest, never actually existed in the setting. They are never referenced, never appear and are completely absent until retconned in later on when TSR decided to smash all the settings together.

Yep as tricky as Tasselhoff Burrfoot teaming up with Demogorgon to stop Magus... Oh wait that actually did happen.

Fun story. Not canon. As easily ignored as a couple of mentions of orcs in some of the earlier books. And, even then, who's to say that this is the same Demogorgon that appears in other settings? There's no reason why it would be, unless, of course, you insist on smashing all the settings together.

But that's not what Planescape as a setting actually does at all. The denizens of Sigil could be just as or more mistaken about what they believe to be the "true" nature of the planes as they believe the inhabitants of DL, FR Eberron or Dark Sun (when they actually have the luxury of contemplating it) are.

But, it's never presented that way. It is always presented as fact. And it infects every other setting.

You mean Tiamat... right??



Emphasis mine...Do you mean the Great Wheel... as in 1e's Great Wheel??



Sure they can, the layers of the Abyss are infinite I'm sure some of them hold entire other-planets and I guarantee nothing in the Planescape Campaign setting says this is impossible...



I'm sure there are volcanoes in Hell that they can live under... and again Planescape doesn't say this is impossible.

Thank you for proving my point. You can't actually have devils living under the mountains unless it's mountains in Hell. Which forces every setting to actually HAVE a Nine Hells, whether that setting should have that or not.

Wait so which is it... The Great Wheel or Planescape??

At this point in time, the two are indistinguishable. The Great Wheel IS Planescape. Has been for decades

Preference baffles you? Well I can only say I personally find Planescape to be one of the most intriguing, interesting and cool places TSR published to run a camapign in... certainly no more tired, rehashed and lacking in originality than it's continuously published pseudo-europe settings that vary only in slightly tweaked ways. But hey different strokes for different folks.

And that's fantastic. Great for you. I totally understand loving a setting. Wonderful. Just please stop trying to shove your preferences down my throat. You can have your Planescape. Just keep it out of anything that isn't in the Planescape line of products.

Or, well, I'll just keep doing what I've always done and completely ignore all the Planescape stuff, which means all the planar material for D&D, and thankfully now I can simply rely on 3pp to give me what I want. I have to admit that PS means that I can easily tell whether or not I want to buy a product. I know that something like Mordenkainen's is a product I will have zero use for, so, I won't buy it. Easy Peasy.

 

[cbwjm]

Or, well, I'll just keep doing what I've always done and completely ignore all the Planescape stuff, which means all the planar material for D&D, and thankfully now I can simply rely on 3pp to give me what I want. I have to admit that PS means that I can easily tell whether or not I want to buy a product. I know that something like Mordenkainen's is a product I will have zero use for, so, I won't buy it. Easy Peasy.

Problem solved. Just keep ignoring the multiverse story that the DnD team are using for 5e.

 

[Hussar]

Problem solved. Just keep ignoring the multiverse story that the DnD team are using for 5e.

Oh, hey, I totally agree. This is one aspect of D&D that I just completely ignore. It would be an awful lot easier to ignore if it didn't intrude on so many aspects of the game though. That's my primary beef. I can completely ignore, say, Eberron and it in no way impacts any other part of the game. Ignoring the planar stuff though is a lot more difficult.