Sage Advice's ruling on staves

[Piratecat]

If people start bickering, I'm not going to have the slightest qualm about closing down what I see as a goofy argument in the first place. Let's not let that happen, please. So everyone, be very cautious of using broad statements to denigrate the other side of the discussion.

 

[Bad Paper]

does anyone consider staves with only one spell especially, game-breakingly powerful?

I do. That's why I started this thread. For one thing, it erodes Craft Wand.

A lot of the indiosyncratic quirks about magic items in this game are solely to grandfather in existing flavor. Monte Cook (and others, I am sure) has gone on record saying that the only reason for Brew Potion's and Craft Wand's limitations on spell level is flavor, and that there is otherwise nothing game-breaking about ignoring them. For example, I have allowed Elixirs of Restoration to be bought (but not made) by the PCs in my campaign. [1,500gp seems like a nice fix to the problem of five PCs without a cleric getting the crap beaten out of them in Nightfang Spire, but I digress.]

Reading Cook's statement above in the face of staves (or "staffs," if you're too young to have received the Gygax-imprint from 1st ed), he would likely agree that there is nothing game-breaking about a single-spell staff, and I would go one step further and ask WtF that 8th-level minimum CL is doing there. The issue here is not necessarily one of mechanics. It's about flavor, and not just the flavor of the staff, but of the feats Craft Staff and Craft Wand. Andy Collins just stepped in and said, "You know what? I'm coming off my high from writing Magic Item Compendium, and I can do ANYTHING!!! muhahahha"

And please stop using the but-it-says-they're-all-made-of-wood "argument." It has -nothing- to do with the issue at hand and just makes you look silly.

I posted a thread over at Andy Collins's site (paraphrasing Hyp's points on page 1 of this thread) asking Collins what he was thinking. He hasn't responded, but his other readers have, and whew! let's just say that with all of its absurd tangents, this is a more productive thread.

note to mods: dissing other enworlders is generally nixed, but are we allowed to dis other forum sites? good, thought so, thanks.

 

[jasin]

Flavor-breakingly asynchronous? Probably so.

Why?

And to some people, the latter is actually more important. (The original description, intent, and pattern is clearly that staffs should be a complicated set of related magics.)

Well, the description also makes it seem like staves are something every wizard dreams of, and yet they're mostly hideously overpiced. A good way to stop people trying to make staves with only one spell would be to make staves with "several" spells actually worth the money.

 

[Legildur]

I believe mvincent was referring to people who dismiss the entire FAQ, wholesale. Not just parts. There seem to be quite a number of people who toss out the entire FAQ as worthless, and who use fairly strong words in describing just how worthless the entire thing is.

Even that position would be a gross simplification of the argument. I would still recommend that mvinvent reads the other posts and then reconsider his earlier post. But this is not the thread to rehash it all; unless we wish it to become long and repetitive......

 

[Legildur]

My emphasis

And please stop using the but-it-says-they're-all-made-of-wood "argument." It has -nothing- to do with the issue at hand and just makes you look silly.

....

note to mods: dissing other enworlders is generally nixed, but are we allowed to dis other forum sites? good, thought so, thanks.

Now the first para I quoted is not very nice.... but I shake my head when I then get to the second para I quoted.....

It's hardly a merits-based argument when you say things like that.

 

[jasin]

I do. That's why I started this thread. For one thing, it erodes Craft Wand.

Do you see many people making staves of cure light wounds at CL 8th? Or detect magic? These are the most often made wands IME.

The issue here is not necessarily one of mechanics. It's about flavor, and not just the flavor of the staff, but of the feats Craft Staff and Craft Wand.

Flavour of Craft Staff is crap already. Go to someone familiar with fantasy but not D&D staff mechanics and tell them wizards' staves are disposable spell batteries that get chucked into the trash bin when they're depleted while you go to work on a new one and you'll get a resounding "WTF!?"

Metamagic rods and the new Magic Item Compendium thingies which let you "convert" spells make better wizards' staves than staves ever did.

 

[mvincent]

So I take it you are dismissing other peoples' perfectly legitimate views on the FAQ as self-serving behaviour?

Merely making an amusing speculation (even assuming you do view increasing your own post count as genuinely self-serving).

I would have thought you would have felt more umbrage at my onerous puns... and don't even get me started on the possible double-entendres I've skipped in this thread.

"I sense a great disturbance... as if a thousand double entendres cried out, and were suddenly silenced..." OotS

Gee, thanks for that.

You're welcome?

Maybe you should go back and have a quick read over some of those threads criticising parts of the FAQ (and it is only parts) and review the evidence as to why they may hold that view.

Maybe I already have. I'm mainly referring to those that (frequently) seek to malign the FAQ as a whole here (which is common on this board, but nowhere else I've seen).

Compared to other places I frequent: this board tends to be a cesspool of negativity and constant debates: debates which are evidently subject to interpretation (else there wouldn't be such long threads on them). The FAQ is useful for resolving such issues (even though any given ruling couldn't possibly make everyone happy), but I typically see it instead maligned here. I gotta think that policy helps everyone's post counts go up.

 

[mvincent]

I would still recommend that mvinvent reads the other posts and then reconsider his earlier post.

Your posting style seems hostile. Let me try it on for a sec:
I recommend Legivdur read my own posts in those threads (i.e. indicating I read those threads) and reconsider his earlier post. He could also read my similar (but more extensive) contributions to similar threads on the (comparatively polite) WotC boards.

Hmm... now I feel dirty.

 

[Legildur]

Your posting style seems hostile.

I guess that what happens when you respond to trolling..... (you admit you know the FAQ issue is contentious, and yet you threw out a line on the issue that was far from "amusing").

After reading through this thread, my view is that a staff is made of wood and contains several spells (two or more seems to be the measure here in lines with modern usage of the word - even though I was brought up to believe several means around 5 or more).

But I don't see any significant issues with allowing the single spell variant. It hardly seems 'broken'.

PS You OoTS quotes is also one of my favourites.

 

[Nail]

Let's face it: this board tends to be cesspool of negativity .....

You're kidding, I hope.