Sage Advice's ruling on staves

[Mistwell]

Why? If we throw out the definition of "several," then we should be able to throw out this absurd minimum caster level. Why not just make Craft Wand and Craft Staff feats that you get at different levels?

the answer being, i suspect, that Craft Wand will disappear

A staff contains multiple ("several") spells. The Sage's ruling is stealth errata.

This issue has been well covered. Several is not necessarily referring to the phrase you think it is referring to. It could mean the 50 spells that are contained in it as charges, and it could mean "several" different spells stored in it (in which case we need to fix a number to the word "several"), like you think it means. But I think from any objective perspective, it's vague.

I get why you have the opinion you have, and I think it is one reasonable intepretation. I do not get why you feel it is obvious, or clear, or a "definition". It seems to be none of those. I just don't personally describe things that are iffy and on the fence as clear, obvious, or definitional.

 

[Deset Gled]

If it really needs repeating, the Craft Staff feat allows you to create one of the staffs listed in the DMG. Any other design of staff, its price and its prerequisites must be approved by the DM regardless of what some formula says it 'should' cost.

QFT.

Allowing custom staves is already a houserule. I don't need the Sage to tell me if a houserule is legal or not (unless he happens to be my DM).

 

[Hypersmurf]

This issue has been well covered. Several is not necessarily referring to the phrase you think it is referring to. It could mean the 50 spells that are contained in it as charges...

I reject that emphatically. Again, compare it to the Wand description.

"A wand is a thin baton that contains a single spell."
"A staff is a long shaft of wood that stores several spells."

Is there something this specific for staves?

You just quoted it. A long shaft of wood that doesn't store several spells isn't a staff, because a staff is a long shaft of wood that stores several spells.

-Hyp.

 

[nute]

I reject that emphatically. Again, compare it to the Wand description.

"A wand is a thin baton that contains a single spell."
"A staff is a long shaft of wood that stores several spells."



You just quoted it. A long shaft of wood that doesn't store several spells isn't a staff, because a staff is a long shaft of wood that stores several spells.

-Hyp.

In that case, there needs to be errata to say "A staff is a long shaft of wood that may store several spells."

The reason for this being:

Wand of Fireball - possible
Staff of Fireball - not possible. Why? Why in the mechanical and logistical sense would it be impossible to create a magical device to cast a third-level spell but utilize the user's caster level to determine save DCs, etc?

Staff of Fireball+Magic Missile - possible. It makes no sense that a MORE complex item can be created while a LESS complex one cannot. Therefore the rules-as-written are broken and thus the Sage's Advice should be taken as errata.

 

[takasi]

Well, there are two points.

1.
STAFFS
A staff is a long shaft of wood that stores several spells.

If it doesn't store several spells, it's not a staff. Which is why I ask - how do you define 'several'?

When you're saying something stores something, that means it has the potential to store or can store, but does not mean that all staffs always store several spells.

For example, a minivan seats seven. Does that mean that it is always seating seven?

A staff stores several spells. Does that mean that is is always storing several spells?

 

[RigaMortus2]

If I have a staff that has 5 different spells in it, and I use up all the charges for 4 of those spells, does it cease to be a staff all of a sudden because now it only has 1 spell in it?

 

[Hypersmurf]

If I have a staff that has 5 different spells in it, and I use up all the charges for 4 of those spells, does it cease to be a staff all of a sudden because now it only has 1 spell in it?

Staffs have a single pool of charges that all spells draw on, not a different pool of charges for each spell.

For example, a minivan seats seven. Does that mean that it is always seating seven?

A staff stores several spells. Does that mean that is is always storing several spells?

"seat" has one potential meaning of "to have seats for" or "to have capacity for".

"store" does not have that meaning.

You can say "The minivan seats seven" and be correct, even if at no time in past, present, or future are seven people in it.

You can't say "He stores a dozen bottles of milk in his fridge" and be correct unless, at least occasionally, there are actually a dozen bottles of milk in his fridge. Even if there's room for them.

Apart from which, even if we took that meaning, it would apply if the statement were "Staffs are long shafts of wood that store several spells", but it is expressed in the singular - "A staff is a long shaft of wood that stores several spells". If we were to somehow create a Staff of Fireball, it's not a long shaft of wood capable of storing several spells but only storing one right now; it's a long shaft of wood that stores a single spell. The hypothetical Staff of Fireball can't store any spell other than Fireball; therefore it is not a long shaft of wood that stores (from time to time) several spells; it is not a long shaft of wood that stores several spells at all!

-Hyp.

 

[takasi]

If I have a staff that has 5 different spells in it, and I use up all the charges for 4 of those spells, does it cease to be a staff all of a sudden because now it only has 1 spell in it?

No, because at one point it has the potential to store more than one spell.

When you create a staff, you have the potential to store more than one spell. Just because you choose not to doesn't mean it ceases to be a staff.

For example, comparing it with this definition:

A minivan is a vehicle that seats seven.

If I buy a minivan, never drive it and then blow it up with a bazooka, was it ever a minivan? Of course. It still seats seven, even if it doesn't have seven passengers.

A staff stores several spells, even if it is crafted with only one.

 

[Hypersmurf]

No, because at one point it has the potential to store more than one spell.

It never did. First it was non-magical, then it was a Staff of Fireball. It was never a Staff of Some Undefined Number Of Spells.

And 'stores' doesn't refer to potential like 'seats' can.

-Hyp.

 

[takasi]

"seat" has one potential meaning of "to have seats for" or "to have capacity for".

"store" does not have that meaning.

The former is entirely irrelevant to this topic (because we don't care about how many actual 'seats' are there, there could be five for all we care, we're talking about the latter definition).

One could say...

"A pocket protector is a device worn on the shirt that stores several types of writing instruments."

Does that mean I cannot store only pencils in my pocket protector? No. It has the potential.

All staffs have the potential to store several spells when they are created, and at any given time they can be expended of charges and recreated with several spells.

The hypothetical Staff of Fireball can't store any spell other than Fireball;

There is nothing saying that this stick of wood can't be used to add different spells to it at a later date. A staff is still a staff even if it's empty.