Sage Advice's ruling on staves

[Mistwell]

I reject that emphatically. Again, compare it to the Wand description.

"A wand is a thin baton that contains a single spell."
"A staff is a long shaft of wood that stores several spells."

I'm glad you are emphatic about it.

I reject your emphatic rejecttion, though not emphatically.

Analogies to other rules are helpful, but not 100% convincing. You have yourself pointed out dozens of apparently valid analogies which turn out to be invalid.

In english, several can be referring to the charges, or the different types of spells. Several, being a vague word itself (as you have pointed out), is being used in the english usage rather than a specific rules usage. And since that is the case, it remains vague, regardless of how emphatic you are about that opinion.

 

[Hypersmurf]

One could say...

"A pocket protector is a device worn on the shirt that stores several types of writing instruments."

If it never does, that statement would be incorrect.

'Stores' doesn't discuss potential like 'seats' does. If a pocket protector has the potential to store several types, but only stores pencils, it would be correct to state "A pocket protector is a device worn on the shirt that can store several types of writing instruments."

There is nothing saying that this stick of wood can't be used to add different spells to it at a later date.

So if I have a non-magical stick, you'd say it's correct to call it a wand (by the D&D definition), because it has the potential at some point in the future to contain a single spell?

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

In english, several can be referring to the charges, or the different types of spells.

So in the two spell trigger items in the DMG, the word 'spell' refers in one item description to '50 charges', and in the other item description to 'spell'?

-Hyp.

 

[Mistwell]

These spells all use the word "several" to refer to a number from 0 to 10 or more, depending on the spell and the circumstances. If several in the rules always meant more than 1 or 2, I don't think these spells could work as written. Several seems to be a broad term which can mean a few or lots, depending on the circumstances.

Circle of Death
Enlarge Person, Mass
Heal, Mass
Hypnotism
Reduce Person, Mass
Undeath to Death
Waves of Exhaustion
Waves of Fatigue

 

[Hypersmurf]

These spells all use the word "several" to refer to a number from 0 to 10...

I guess the advantage of a staff containing 0 spells is that it's cheap!

-Hyp.

 

[Mistwell]

I guess the advantage of a staff containing 0 spells is that it's cheap!

-Hyp.

While I do not personally think the word refers to charges, I think that is one reasonable interpetation.

However, I also do not think several in this context is meant to mean more than one by necessity, or more than two as some would suggest.

My point is that I think WOTC often uses the word several as shorthand for "up to many". I do not think it was meant as a "floor" type term, as in "not less than several". I think it was instead meant to describe the flexibility of the ceiling, as in "as long as you can afford it, you can put lots of spells in this item".

Dice bags hold several dice. This does not mean that a dice bag cannot hold one die, or even no dice. Several, in this context, is meant to refer to the pontential large number of dice you can put into it, not the minimum number required for the bag. In the same fashion, I think the phrase about staves is intended to refer to the potential large number of different spells you can put into it, and not the minumum number of different spells required for a staff.

And that is also indicative of why nobody seems willing to answer your question of "just how many IS several". Because whatever answer they give can be easily challenged. The word several is not meant to be a specific number. It's a shorthand term that is intentionally vague.

 

[Hypersmurf]

While I do not personally think the word refers to charges, I think that is one reasonable interpetation.

I'd call 'reasonable' a hell of a stretch there, myself

And that is also indicative of why nobody seems willing to answer your question of "just how many IS several". Because whatever answer they give can be easily challenged.

It's interesting browsing dictionaries for the word:

"being more than two but fewer than many in number or kind", Random House Unabridged Dictionary.

"Being of a number more than two or three but not many", American Heritage Dictionary.

"of an indefinite number more than 2 or 3 but not many", WordNet.

"more than one or two, but not a great many", Kernerman English Multilingual Dictionary.

-Hyp.

 

[tomBitonti]

So ...

www.d20srd.org has:

* A wand is a thin baton that contains a single spell of 4th level or lower. Each wand has 50 charges when created, and each charge expended allows the user to use the wand’s spell one time. A wand that runs out of charges is just a stick.

* A staff is a long shaft of wood that stores several spells. Unlike wands, which can contain a wide variety of spells, each staff is of a certain kind and holds specific spells. A staff has 50 charges when created.

Here the text is imprecise; one must expand this text to obtain precision, for example:

"A staff is a long shaft of wood that has charges and confers the ability to cast one of several spells by expending charges. The several spells held by a staff must be of a related type. A staff does not cease to be a staff even if only enough charges remain to cast but a single of the spells held by the staff."

Enforcing strict definitions, "several" must be taken to mean at least 3, and one could argue that a staff having but a single spell that costs one charge ceases to be a staff at a point in time when the staff is reduced to a single charge.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Enforcing strict definitions, "several" must be taken to mean at least 3...

Except that the Staffs of Charming, Life, and Swarming Insects object.

-Hyp.

 

[tomBitonti]

Specific vs. general

Except that the Staffs of Charming, Life, and Swarming Insects object.

-Hyp.

Wouldn't those be considered cases where the specific instance overrides the general rule,
but leaves the general rule intact? The alternative would be to redefine "several" for the
purpose of counting spells on staffs, and my training (as a math guy) doesn't allow that.
(If you call a tail a leg, how many legs does a dog have?)

(Or, the word "several" could be declared to be in error, and replaced with "two or more".)