Redbadge
Explorer
Something said in the Edition Wars thread (tongue-in-cheek) really made me think during dinner, which is good, because that is why I participate in these discussions.
Pawsplay said: "4e is not ever going to be an optimized experience for me... D&D 4e can never be that for me. First of all, it's only somewhat D&D to me. It's the first edition of D&D I know of where you need a different set of miniatures because the characters and creatures have changed so much. You could play 3e with AD&D official miniatures, or AD&D with the Giants of Legend set. Any given 4e-inspired set, however, is full of things that make me scratch my head.... No session of 4e is going to convince me that the Elf/Eladrin split is a good idea, that 1st level "elf" PCs should have magical teleports, or that tieflings or dragonborn are plausible core races for any of the campaigns that interest me. It is never going to escape my attention that 4e started off with a a "two ability score" paradigm and later switched to a "Nevermind, just pile most of your points into your prime ability" paradigm, with several classes stumbling through the transition. "Starleather" is not my cup of tea. I hate game-centric economies with stupidities like selling valuable, reusable magical artifacts for 20% of their nominal value. There are plenty of people for whom those aren't issues, and 4e is meant for them. Not for me.
The reason edition wars happen is because some people will not leave well enough alone. It's okay that I don't like 4e. It's okay others like it. It is preposterous to think I am going to become a convert. ... At the point at which I get insulted for stating I will not be converted, that's when I get angry. I am not clinging to 3e, nor am I blind to 4e's innovations. It's very clear to me, simply, that 4e is not going to be the game I want."
My first thought was (right or wrong): 4e isn't about any of those things. That's the trappings and WotC's presentations getting in the way. But pawsplay did say he/she recognized 4e's innovations. My question is (assuming you agree that 4e had innovations), as a 4e nonenthusiast, what are these innovations?
For me, 4th Edition is 4 things at its core:
1. Customizable roles/characters using defined mechanics (typically level and class, but can also include 1 or more of: race, theme, background, subclass, build, paragon path, epic destiny, and more that haven't been invented yet; nonmechanical layers are also available such as gender, clan, etc.)
2. A story resolution mechanic typically referred to as d20 (20 sided die, with modifiers versuses a determined difficulty class, including Armor Class, Fortitude, Reflex, and Will as different ways to attack another creature)
3. Defined actions or choices available to a character during a "round" using an established action economy (Currently the action economy consists of standard, move, minor, immediate, opportunity, and free; a round could be anything from 6 seconds, to 5 minutes, to a day, to a week, to a year, etc.) This action economy is typically utilized during an "encounter" which could be a combat, a conversation, a trap or series of traps, a skill-based challenge, or something as large as running a kingdom for a year. Not all parts of the came occur during an encounter, however.
4. Options for every type of character that consist of effective and flavorful options that can be utilized at-will, once per "encounter"/scene (either for narrativist, simulationist, or gamist reasons), and once per day/session/act. These are typically called "powers" and are formatted using the green/red/black distinction, but I consider this presentation and not essential to the 4e experience.
There are a number of things I think add to the system, but are not part of the 4e core:
1. Resource management, including health/hitpoints, action points, limited use actions, item usages, charges, and consumables
2. Differintiated types of classes (currently called roles) in which each category of class has identifiable strengths and weaknesses that are best covered by playing with other classes and adding to cooperative nature of the game. The exact nature of these strengths and weakness are just trappings and can be changed as gameplay desires change.
3. Differentiated combat and non-combat options available during both character creation and in play.
4. Resolution and gameplay based on the assumption that the "classes" and their overall options in creation and in play are balanced, both against each other, and the desired challenge of the GM.
5. Some kind of overall flavor desired by the players and GM by which to get into character and tell the story (the default presented is fantasy, including teleporting Eladrin, but can also include the presentation of Dark Sun, War of the Burning Sky, Gamma World, Zeitgeist, Santiago, Paizo's Kingmaker, etc.)
In a later post I can list my specific house rules that have built upon 4e mechanics if any one is interested. (For example, no half-level bonuses for a flattened attack curve and more stable skill DC table; properties and powers for every item no matter how mundane, such as backpacks, trail rations, and whetstones; and additional powers and options for noncombat encounters).
Pawsplay said: "4e is not ever going to be an optimized experience for me... D&D 4e can never be that for me. First of all, it's only somewhat D&D to me. It's the first edition of D&D I know of where you need a different set of miniatures because the characters and creatures have changed so much. You could play 3e with AD&D official miniatures, or AD&D with the Giants of Legend set. Any given 4e-inspired set, however, is full of things that make me scratch my head.... No session of 4e is going to convince me that the Elf/Eladrin split is a good idea, that 1st level "elf" PCs should have magical teleports, or that tieflings or dragonborn are plausible core races for any of the campaigns that interest me. It is never going to escape my attention that 4e started off with a a "two ability score" paradigm and later switched to a "Nevermind, just pile most of your points into your prime ability" paradigm, with several classes stumbling through the transition. "Starleather" is not my cup of tea. I hate game-centric economies with stupidities like selling valuable, reusable magical artifacts for 20% of their nominal value. There are plenty of people for whom those aren't issues, and 4e is meant for them. Not for me.
The reason edition wars happen is because some people will not leave well enough alone. It's okay that I don't like 4e. It's okay others like it. It is preposterous to think I am going to become a convert. ... At the point at which I get insulted for stating I will not be converted, that's when I get angry. I am not clinging to 3e, nor am I blind to 4e's innovations. It's very clear to me, simply, that 4e is not going to be the game I want."
My first thought was (right or wrong): 4e isn't about any of those things. That's the trappings and WotC's presentations getting in the way. But pawsplay did say he/she recognized 4e's innovations. My question is (assuming you agree that 4e had innovations), as a 4e nonenthusiast, what are these innovations?
For me, 4th Edition is 4 things at its core:
1. Customizable roles/characters using defined mechanics (typically level and class, but can also include 1 or more of: race, theme, background, subclass, build, paragon path, epic destiny, and more that haven't been invented yet; nonmechanical layers are also available such as gender, clan, etc.)
2. A story resolution mechanic typically referred to as d20 (20 sided die, with modifiers versuses a determined difficulty class, including Armor Class, Fortitude, Reflex, and Will as different ways to attack another creature)
3. Defined actions or choices available to a character during a "round" using an established action economy (Currently the action economy consists of standard, move, minor, immediate, opportunity, and free; a round could be anything from 6 seconds, to 5 minutes, to a day, to a week, to a year, etc.) This action economy is typically utilized during an "encounter" which could be a combat, a conversation, a trap or series of traps, a skill-based challenge, or something as large as running a kingdom for a year. Not all parts of the came occur during an encounter, however.
4. Options for every type of character that consist of effective and flavorful options that can be utilized at-will, once per "encounter"/scene (either for narrativist, simulationist, or gamist reasons), and once per day/session/act. These are typically called "powers" and are formatted using the green/red/black distinction, but I consider this presentation and not essential to the 4e experience.
There are a number of things I think add to the system, but are not part of the 4e core:
1. Resource management, including health/hitpoints, action points, limited use actions, item usages, charges, and consumables
2. Differintiated types of classes (currently called roles) in which each category of class has identifiable strengths and weaknesses that are best covered by playing with other classes and adding to cooperative nature of the game. The exact nature of these strengths and weakness are just trappings and can be changed as gameplay desires change.
3. Differentiated combat and non-combat options available during both character creation and in play.
4. Resolution and gameplay based on the assumption that the "classes" and their overall options in creation and in play are balanced, both against each other, and the desired challenge of the GM.
5. Some kind of overall flavor desired by the players and GM by which to get into character and tell the story (the default presented is fantasy, including teleporting Eladrin, but can also include the presentation of Dark Sun, War of the Burning Sky, Gamma World, Zeitgeist, Santiago, Paizo's Kingmaker, etc.)
In a later post I can list my specific house rules that have built upon 4e mechanics if any one is interested. (For example, no half-level bonuses for a flattened attack curve and more stable skill DC table; properties and powers for every item no matter how mundane, such as backpacks, trail rations, and whetstones; and additional powers and options for noncombat encounters).
