D&D General Sandbox and/or/vs Linear campaigns

[Reynard]

I’m getting mixed signals here folks.

What defines a sandbox is that the players decide what to engage with, when and how. It does not mean that The Keep on the Borderlands can't be present in the sandbox, or that the GM establishing locations, characters, factions and situations with which to interact makes it not a sandbox.

So etimes people conflate hexcrawling with sandboxes. Most hexcrawls are sandboxes, but not all sandboxes are hexcrawls. Moreover, where a sandbox is crafted, random, or something in between has no impact on whether it is a sandbox.

Just to reiterate: what makes something a sandbox is that within the bounds of the box, the PCs have agency to choose how they will engage with all the toys in the sandbox.

 

[Bedrockgames]

What defines a sandbox is that the players decide what to engage with, when and how. It does not mean that The Keep on the Borderlands can't be present in the sandbox, or that the GM establishing locations, characters, factions and situations with which to interact makes it not a sandbox.

This

So etimes people conflate hexcrawling with sandboxes. Most hexcrawls are sandboxes, but not all sandboxes are hexcrawls. Moreover, where a sandbox is crafted, random, or something in between has no impact on whether it is a sandbox.

This too

 

[KYRON45]

I’ve never played in a game where the players didn’t captain the ship. We just always respected the fact that the DM had some kind of vision for what was happening and never threw things too far off course. Always allowing the DM to ply his craft.

The DM in turn crafted the game around the needs and wants of the party. We never labeled it sandbox, trad, lite, fat free, etc.

It’s always very interesting to me to read threads like this where people are arguing about things they agree on.

 

[Reynard]

I’ve never played in a game where the players didn’t captain the ship. We just always respected the fact that the DM had some kind of vision for what was happening and never threw things too far off course. Always allowing the DM to ply his craft.

The DM in turn crafted the game around the needs and wants of the party. We never labeled it sandbox, trad, lite, fat free, etc.

It’s always very interesting to me to read threads like this where people are arguing about things they agree on.

You asked for a definition. A couple of times.

Just because a game is linear doesn't mean the players have no agency. It just means they voluntarily relinquish some of that agency to facilitate play.

 

[KYRON45]

You asked for a definition. A couple of times.

Just because a game is linear doesn't mean the players have no agency. It just means they voluntarily relinquish some of that agency to facilitate play.

If you start from the beginning…the same people will give different definitions for things sometimes even in the same post.

I enjoy the different points of view. Learning about different play styles is fascinating.

 

[zakael19]

A big part about Sandbox play is the "Game About Nothing" (like the TV show Seinfeld). An Open Sandbox lets the players have their characters do nearly anything they wish on a whim. And quite often this is non-combat, non-adventure Slice of Life stuff. The character's might go shopping or attend a play or such things. This is common in open type online video games

I guess you can say loose connections....but it is still like episodic TV...where other shows/adventures really don't matter.

Well, not escaping.....

You can see people on online games, where they might even pay, but they don't really play the game much. They don't care about the Quests, and Levels and all that. They just want to socialize and hang out. Or they pick some minor part of the game they find fun....maybe like growing corn...and they become a corn farmer.

And activities like Second Life, where you can make a house or whatever and just show it off.

Yes. In Pure Sandbox Play the goal is simply to play. Or use up time.


Yes, as it is about how you play out the game.

Woah....so a more typical Sandbox does not have that much detail. Maybe the dm-player makes a map, but they sure are not making points of interest. Once the DM starts to create more then a small amount, the game slides down the slipper slope to being a Linear Game.

A more Sandbox game simply has a 'unknown cave' marked on it. And a player or two then say, and alter game reality, "there is a powerful magic sword in that cave we want", and the DM-player bows quickly to say "yes players". And because the players said the sword was in the cave, it is okay for the game to be linear about that single player approved bit of data. So the characters have to travel to the cave to get the sword.



If the players approve of a small part of the game world being Linear, then it is okay for the dm-player to make a linear encounter around that single player approved item.

But the players still have the majority control over the whole game world and what and how and why and when they want to do nearly anything.


you are missing the structure part.

Anything except a True Sandbox game that is pure chaos, needs to have at least a slight Linear Framework. Otherwise it is pure chaos. A goal in linear, but that does not effect the game play.

Take two groups, they both say "we will save the princess".

In the Linear Game the DM preps for the game, often tons of maps and text and work and effort..even to the point of writing an adventure. And the DM locks in all the details. Before the game starts the DM can tell you the what, why, how, where of the whole 'save the princess ' idea. Who did it, why, how, where she is and all sorts of details. It is all set by the DM....the players have no say. During the game the players must follow the DMs path to find the princess and save her, based on all the details.

The sandbox game....all the details are left open. Often the DM-player provides no details...but may provide a light dusting of vague details. Everything about the whole idea is to be set by the actions of the player characters. Whatever the players choose to do under the idea 'save the princess' becomes the game reality of saving the princess. The DM-player her has little or no power and simply makes what the players tell them to make and have the PCs save the princess.

I don’t think most of this is true at all.

I’ve never played in a game where the players didn’t captain the ship. We just always respected the fact that the DM had some kind of vision for what was happening and never threw things too far off course. Always allowing the DM to ply his craft.

The DM in turn crafted the game around the needs and wants of the party. We never labeled it sandbox, trad, lite, fat free, etc.

It’s always very interesting to me to read threads like this where people are arguing about things they agree on.

The difference in especially a properly prepped “blorb” style sandbox is that apart from like, the basic setting & core facts about the world the GM doesn’t have a “vision for what’s happening” or a course.

 

[KYRON45]

A game where PCs get to just wander to and fro with no regard for any kind of plot or organized…anything of any kind is not appealing to me.

To me it just seems disjointed and chaotic.
Seems like a lot of people enjoy this type of game.

Play the game how you like of course.

 

[zakael19]

A game where PCs get to just wander to and fro with no regard for any kind of plot or organized…anything of any kind is not appealing to me.

To me it just seems disjointed and chaotic.
Seems like a lot of people enjoy this type of game.

Play the game how you like of course.

It’s actually very goal oriented, especially in non-5e systems. For instance in the various OSR rulesets with progression tied to treasure accumulation; domain rules; the idea that your adventurer might retire to a life of riches; etc - people wind up figuring out what matters to their character via play.

And sometimes it might be deciding that an evil overlord or a faction’s desires to restore lost church’s, or ferret out arcane secrets etc is what they want to pursue.

 

[Bedrockgames]

A game where PCs get to just wander to and fro with no regard for any kind of plot or organized…anything of any kind is not appealing to me.

To me it just seems disjointed and chaotic.
Seems like a lot of people enjoy this type of game.

Play the game how you like of course.

Players usually set goals for themselves

 

[bloodtide]

to me you are conflating two different things. Dolmenwood is a sandbox, a map with 100 linear predetermined locations / dungeons is a sandbox.

If I was talking about a game I would say it's name.

The players saying ‘there is a cave beyond this forest and in it is a magical sword’ is something completely different

Different then a linear game, yes.

if the players go to the nearest inn and drink ale all day, the princess is not saved, no matter whether they did so ‘under the idea of saving the princess’ or not

Not sure what to call the game you describe here, nonsense seems to come to mind…

I agree this describes sandboxes.

What makes a sandbox campaign different from a linear campaign is that in a linear campaign - to follow the same analogy - the DM doesn't just provide the sand but also tells those playing in the sand the exact specifications of the sandcastle they're going to build and then sits back and watches them build it. Meanwhile in a true sandbox campaign the DM still provides the sand but doesn't much care whether they build a castle with it or draw a picture in it or even throw it in each others faces.

This does not really fit. Most DMs don't really care what the game is about and will let the players do what they want.

So you've gone from "lock in all the details" to a "lock in a bare minimum of details"? Yeah, I agree with the latter but now you've responded to a point that wasn't made.

No, locking in even one detail makes it Linear.

What defines a sandbox is that the players decide what to engage with, when and how.

Agreed. The players make the game they want, they don't play in the DM's game as that is the Linear Style.

It does not mean that The Keep on the Borderlands can't be present in the sandbox, or that the GM establishing locations, characters, factions and situations with which to interact makes it not a sandbox.

The main point are how much detail the DM makes.

A typical casual player-dm in a sandbox game makes very little. They don't want to keep track of lots of details. And every detail chips away at the players sandbox, and the player-dm does not want to do that.

The classic traditional DM makes a lot, from several paragraphs right up to 30+ page adventures.

Just to reiterate: what makes something a sandbox is that within the bounds of the box, the PCs have agency to choose how they will engage with all the toys in the sandbox.

Right

A game where PCs get to just wander to and fro with no regard for any kind of plot or organized…anything of any kind is not appealing to me.

It does appeal to many. Some D&D games can take six hours just to go shopping in a city, for example. Some people love Slice of Life stuff like this.