Raven Crowking
First Post
Absolutely. LostSoul, don't let my comments be too much of a digression. Overall, it seems as though you have the system working for you!
Sandboxing in the Nentir Vale (was: Emergent Features in KotS)
- Thread starter LostSoul
- Start date
Nebulous
Legend
Lostsoul, was this YOUR idea you brought to the table, or was it a collaborative agreement? What about the current extended rest rules (all surges back, all dailies returned) was particularly problematic?
Personally, i'm not a fan of the rule and i really like the solution you came up with, but i don't think my players have any problem with "per the book." Usually they don't abuse the extended rest rules, and there have been times where they pushed themselves too hard and PCs have been killed as a result.
BUT...i do like them having to pick whether to return a Daily Power or Healing Surges.
I'm also toying with an idea to make Action Points more lucrative. If you can save up 3 (maybe 4) then you can recharge a Daily. That might mesh well with the reduced effectiveness of extended rests.
LostSoul
Adventurer
The idea that I liked best (not mine) was to go with 1 extended rest per week. We talked about it for a while and one of the other players suggested the current change, which has worked out pretty well.
There were two triggers to the extended rest thing.
The first issue that I noticed was that the PCs were in constant motion. This didn't give the NPCs enough time to do anything (within my own limits of disbelief), so the environment - from my point of view - was very static.
The second issue came up when the PCs blew through an encounter because it was the only one in the day. This offered up some problems - either we spend some time going through cakewalk encounters or I up the difficult for those lone encounters, but if the PCs end up pulling two of those we're looking at a TPK.
Both issues have been resolved. I also feel much better about my ability to challenge the PCs, because even if they wipe out an encounter with no problem, a couple of healing surges lost or one daily spent is important. It gives me the feeling that I'm able to challenge the party, and that makes it more fun for me.
*
As far as everything else goes, I'm still learning how to give them meaningful choices to make. Aiden's player and I had a good talk over beers - it's funny but it seems you have to get away from the table to get that kind of critique, which I think is very important.
I also have to figure out what Hekubus has been up to in the past couple of weeks since he left for the Shadowfell to retrieve Armok's soul.
There were two triggers to the extended rest thing.
The first issue that I noticed was that the PCs were in constant motion. This didn't give the NPCs enough time to do anything (within my own limits of disbelief), so the environment - from my point of view - was very static.
The second issue came up when the PCs blew through an encounter because it was the only one in the day. This offered up some problems - either we spend some time going through cakewalk encounters or I up the difficult for those lone encounters, but if the PCs end up pulling two of those we're looking at a TPK.
Both issues have been resolved. I also feel much better about my ability to challenge the PCs, because even if they wipe out an encounter with no problem, a couple of healing surges lost or one daily spent is important. It gives me the feeling that I'm able to challenge the party, and that makes it more fun for me.
*
As far as everything else goes, I'm still learning how to give them meaningful choices to make. Aiden's player and I had a good talk over beers - it's funny but it seems you have to get away from the table to get that kind of critique, which I think is very important.
I also have to figure out what Hekubus has been up to in the past couple of weeks since he left for the Shadowfell to retrieve Armok's soul.
Wik
First Post
The only problem I see with your rest model is the same that plagued fighters in 2e (where all PCs healed 1 hp a day). The more surges you have, the longer it takes to "heal". My paladin has twelve surges, and everyone else has seven. That means I need to rest six days (longer if I have to recharge dailies), compared to everyone else's four.
Personally, I think something like "one quarter of your healing surges" (so everyone heals at the same rate) would work better for this sort of game model. And I'd personally adjust the dailies to something like "one at heroic, two at paragon, three at epic".
Just nit-picking, here. You have a great thread, and I'm really enjoying a lot of your ideas. I'll be using some of them in my upcoming 4e Dark Sun game (eeee!)
Personally, I think something like "one quarter of your healing surges" (so everyone heals at the same rate) would work better for this sort of game model. And I'd personally adjust the dailies to something like "one at heroic, two at paragon, three at epic".
Just nit-picking, here. You have a great thread, and I'm really enjoying a lot of your ideas. I'll be using some of them in my upcoming 4e Dark Sun game (eeee!)
Wik
First Post
Absolutely. I find I get the most feedback from my games a few days after they happened over phone calls, or during the hockey game when we're having a few drinks. Never did figure out what that is.
LostSoul
Adventurer
Played tonight.
Featured a massive battle vs. goblins (Lolthbound goblins are hardcore!) and a skill challenge.
More later, but I need to make sure that the massive battle has an impact beyond the immediate. This was set up in colour via the dying elf scout Greenleaf giving Aiden a token to present to Dara, the Woodsinger Queen.
(RPG theory time: I am convinced that colour is the most important feature of RPGs; any system that wants to grab my attention should put a priority on it. I feel that 4E can do so, but only with effort.)
I am thinking that the skill challenge that I would have presented will be considered a success because of their valiant efforts.
More later. Not too much happened, but they did get wind of what's going on in Winterhaven. The result is that they have a choice to make: finish up with the elves and the despair that is ruining them, or head back to their home town and deal with that.
Featured a massive battle vs. goblins (Lolthbound goblins are hardcore!) and a skill challenge.
More later, but I need to make sure that the massive battle has an impact beyond the immediate. This was set up in colour via the dying elf scout Greenleaf giving Aiden a token to present to Dara, the Woodsinger Queen.
(RPG theory time: I am convinced that colour is the most important feature of RPGs; any system that wants to grab my attention should put a priority on it. I feel that 4E can do so, but only with effort.)
I am thinking that the skill challenge that I would have presented will be considered a success because of their valiant efforts.
More later. Not too much happened, but they did get wind of what's going on in Winterhaven. The result is that they have a choice to make: finish up with the elves and the despair that is ruining them, or head back to their home town and deal with that.
LostSoul
Adventurer
We played again tonight.
The PCs went to the Woodsinger village and had some talk with some folk.
We ran a skill challenge (still ongoing) to deal with bringing the elves to action against the threats in the Harken Wood.
We ended the night with a big fight against 15 hobgoblins (no minions!) which the PCs were barely able to pull through.
I had fun; I'll try to post more later.
The PCs went to the Woodsinger village and had some talk with some folk.
We ran a skill challenge (still ongoing) to deal with bringing the elves to action against the threats in the Harken Wood.
We ended the night with a big fight against 15 hobgoblins (no minions!) which the PCs were barely able to pull through.
I had fun; I'll try to post more later.
LostSoul
Adventurer
So this is what happened, part one:
After killing the goblins, four elves lay dead, including their leader Greenleaf. The two remaining elves wanted to take their dead companions back to their village. The PCs needed some rest and wanted to take their campaign to Dara and see what was happening there.
As the PCs neared the village some elven guards spotted them and greeted them. The leader of these elves was a friend of Aiden's, named Talesid. He was happy to see his old friend - less happy to see the 5 dead elves. Talesid escorted the PCs into the village.
There was a little elven boasting and bragging directed at Umar - everyone else has some elven heritage except Umar, who is 100% human. Mostly it was about how short-lived and rash humans are.
The elven village was a large clearing in the middle of the forest where they had built houses into huge, magically grown trees. Like Ewok Village. In the centre of town there stood a pair of trees that had grown into each other; at their base there was an open space, and this space was a portal to the Feywild. Two elves guarded the portal.
One small tree, younger than the rest, held a temple to Corellon. The temple was in bad shape, obviously neglected. Talesid explained to Shamon that the old priest hadn't taken an acolyte when he died and no one worshipped there much any more.
Upon seeing the dead, the elves wept openly, gnashed their teeth, beat their breasts, pulled out their hair, and moured openly. The PCs spotted Dara, the elven Queen, at her balcony watching them. She didn't look too happy.
With all the elves mourning, Shamon climbed to the temple and stood on a balcony overlooking the throng. He played an elven dirge that he knew and mesmerized the crowd. All the elves stopped and listened to him. Even Dara came out of her home to listen.
When the song was over he adressed the elves, saying that they should be given a burial worthy of their deeds - they should be buried at Lanath Keep (Daggersburg Keep, where all the goblins are; it was a tomb for the noble elven dead). It was time for the elves to rouse themselves and strike back at the goblins and retake what was theirs.
Dara was nearby on her balcony and she spoke back, saying that Shamon was a stranger to their village, that they would be honoured in their own way, buried in the ground so that they could rejoin the wood; Shamon should respect their customs, they stay away from Lanath Keep for good reason - 5 good elves died because their broke with tradition.
Shamon had a good comeback line to that... I can't remember what it was. Something about her mother, the banshee? At any rate, Dara spun on her heel, rebuffed, and went back inside. The elven villagers talked about what Shamon had said, and there was some debate in the crowd.
The PCs decided to rest for the night, since they were pretty banged up; Talesid set them up with some food and a vacant house to sleep in. The PCs went to bed.
Shamon woke up in the middle of the night after his eye of alarm was triggered - swarms of spiders crept into their room and attacked them! Oh no! The spiders crept over the PCs but they were able to kill them without burning down the tree.
After the fight Aiden tried to spot some spider tracks but saw nothing.
Talesid soon arrived and other elves were waking. No one had seen anything suspicious; Talesid said he would guard them for the rest of the night.
When the PCs woke, Talesid and a number of other elves came to see them. These were the elves who were most moved by Shamon's words the other day, the ones who felt like they should do something, but they didn't want to break Dara's laws. They talked with the PCs a bit; I forget what was said, but they didn't have their fears allayed enough to throw in with the PCs.
This was the second of the six days of mourning (the day of rememberance). On the forest floor Dara had set up a crescent table and had the bodies of the dead, cloaked in black shrouds, lying before her. Elves were there saying how they knew the dead and what they remembered of them, adressing Dara, and she would reply with some words of her own.
Umar stepped forward to address the crowd. The elves were hesitant, unsure what this young human had to say, but Dara let him speak. He talked about how he fought alongside the elves and how brave and valiant they were. All the elves nodded and were pleased at his words.
Then Dara responded with a little dig... something like, "We thank you for your kind words, you are a true friend of the elves. It's unfortunate that we have only just met you because of this senseless tragedy, where these brave and noble elves died for absolutely nothing at all."
That triggered some back and forth between Umar and Dara, with the other PCs chipping in now and again: Umar called Dara a coward and talked about how their village was in decay and stagnant; Dara responded with "How dare you! At this time!"; it escalated until Umar badmouthed Dara's mother, Thia, saying that she was working with Lolth or something, and Dara reacted by leaping at Umar and attacking him.
Umar westled her to the table, but the other elves leapt to her defense. Dara spoke out, saying, "You attack us during our time of mourning. Leave here, all of you; never return." So they were banished.
The other elves did nothing to stop Dara, pretty disgusted by the PC's behaviour.
Talesid escorted the PCs out of the village. He didn't quite believe the PCs, with their stories of drow and what not at Lanath Keep, so they offered to take him there and show him directly what they had found. (They considered using Last Sight Vision to show him what Theron saw - specifically the ghost of Thia, just before he was killed, but they'd have to get the bodies from town.) They could also take Theron and Greenleaf and inter them at Lanath Keep, like they deserved.
Shamon used a Bard power that gave him a nice bonus to his Diplomacy check and Talesid agreed to bring the bodies to the PCs. The PCs rested outside of town and at night Talesid brought the bodies along with a pair of elves.
That ends the first part of the adventure. The skill challenge is still in the open, so we'll see what happens.
After killing the goblins, four elves lay dead, including their leader Greenleaf. The two remaining elves wanted to take their dead companions back to their village. The PCs needed some rest and wanted to take their campaign to Dara and see what was happening there.
They faced 4 lolthbound, 2 bugbear warriors, 2 bugbear wardancers, 4 deathjump spiders, a hexer, an underboss, and 8 warriors. The warriors were reduced to minion status due to level difference.
As the PCs neared the village some elven guards spotted them and greeted them. The leader of these elves was a friend of Aiden's, named Talesid. He was happy to see his old friend - less happy to see the 5 dead elves. Talesid escorted the PCs into the village.
There was a little elven boasting and bragging directed at Umar - everyone else has some elven heritage except Umar, who is 100% human. Mostly it was about how short-lived and rash humans are.
The elven village was a large clearing in the middle of the forest where they had built houses into huge, magically grown trees. Like Ewok Village. In the centre of town there stood a pair of trees that had grown into each other; at their base there was an open space, and this space was a portal to the Feywild. Two elves guarded the portal.
One small tree, younger than the rest, held a temple to Corellon. The temple was in bad shape, obviously neglected. Talesid explained to Shamon that the old priest hadn't taken an acolyte when he died and no one worshipped there much any more.
Upon seeing the dead, the elves wept openly, gnashed their teeth, beat their breasts, pulled out their hair, and moured openly. The PCs spotted Dara, the elven Queen, at her balcony watching them. She didn't look too happy.
With all the elves mourning, Shamon climbed to the temple and stood on a balcony overlooking the throng. He played an elven dirge that he knew and mesmerized the crowd. All the elves stopped and listened to him. Even Dara came out of her home to listen.
Shamon rolled Diplomacy; he knew the dirge because he's trained in Religion, and I gave him a +2 bonus because of that.
When the song was over he adressed the elves, saying that they should be given a burial worthy of their deeds - they should be buried at Lanath Keep (Daggersburg Keep, where all the goblins are; it was a tomb for the noble elven dead). It was time for the elves to rouse themselves and strike back at the goblins and retake what was theirs.
Dara was nearby on her balcony and she spoke back, saying that Shamon was a stranger to their village, that they would be honoured in their own way, buried in the ground so that they could rejoin the wood; Shamon should respect their customs, they stay away from Lanath Keep for good reason - 5 good elves died because their broke with tradition.
Shamon had a good comeback line to that... I can't remember what it was. Something about her mother, the banshee? At any rate, Dara spun on her heel, rebuffed, and went back inside. The elven villagers talked about what Shamon had said, and there was some debate in the crowd.
These were a couple rolls in a skill challenge, both successes; I didn't state that we were in a skill challenge, or what the goal was, or anything like that. I think everyone knew. The level, I decided, was 11, since that's Dara's level.
The PCs decided to rest for the night, since they were pretty banged up; Talesid set them up with some food and a vacant house to sleep in. The PCs went to bed.
Shamon woke up in the middle of the night after his eye of alarm was triggered - swarms of spiders crept into their room and attacked them! Oh no! The spiders crept over the PCs but they were able to kill them without burning down the tree.
After the fight Aiden tried to spot some spider tracks but saw nothing.
I wanted to see what would happen if I attacked the PCs at night, while they were sleeping; I've never done that in 4E. I also liked the image of spiders creeping into their room.
Talesid soon arrived and other elves were waking. No one had seen anything suspicious; Talesid said he would guard them for the rest of the night.
When the PCs woke, Talesid and a number of other elves came to see them. These were the elves who were most moved by Shamon's words the other day, the ones who felt like they should do something, but they didn't want to break Dara's laws. They talked with the PCs a bit; I forget what was said, but they didn't have their fears allayed enough to throw in with the PCs.
In other words, a Diplomacy failure.
This was the second of the six days of mourning (the day of rememberance). On the forest floor Dara had set up a crescent table and had the bodies of the dead, cloaked in black shrouds, lying before her. Elves were there saying how they knew the dead and what they remembered of them, adressing Dara, and she would reply with some words of her own.
Decided on the fly that they had six days of mourning and a feast on the seventh day. All this was made up on the fly.
Umar stepped forward to address the crowd. The elves were hesitant, unsure what this young human had to say, but Dara let him speak. He talked about how he fought alongside the elves and how brave and valiant they were. All the elves nodded and were pleased at his words.
Then Dara responded with a little dig... something like, "We thank you for your kind words, you are a true friend of the elves. It's unfortunate that we have only just met you because of this senseless tragedy, where these brave and noble elves died for absolutely nothing at all."
That triggered some back and forth between Umar and Dara, with the other PCs chipping in now and again: Umar called Dara a coward and talked about how their village was in decay and stagnant; Dara responded with "How dare you! At this time!"; it escalated until Umar badmouthed Dara's mother, Thia, saying that she was working with Lolth or something, and Dara reacted by leaping at Umar and attacking him.
Umar westled her to the table, but the other elves leapt to her defense. Dara spoke out, saying, "You attack us during our time of mourning. Leave here, all of you; never return." So they were banished.
The other elves did nothing to stop Dara, pretty disgusted by the PC's behaviour.
Once again, failed Diplomacy check.
Talesid escorted the PCs out of the village. He didn't quite believe the PCs, with their stories of drow and what not at Lanath Keep, so they offered to take him there and show him directly what they had found. (They considered using Last Sight Vision to show him what Theron saw - specifically the ghost of Thia, just before he was killed, but they'd have to get the bodies from town.) They could also take Theron and Greenleaf and inter them at Lanath Keep, like they deserved.
Shamon used a Bard power that gave him a nice bonus to his Diplomacy check and Talesid agreed to bring the bodies to the PCs. The PCs rested outside of town and at night Talesid brought the bodies along with a pair of elves.
That ends the first part of the adventure. The skill challenge is still in the open, so we'll see what happens.
LostSoul
Adventurer
Part two: a big fight.
The PCs made it through the wood to Lanath Keep. When they got there they saw tracks - lots of them - leaving the keep. One set of them got their attention: heavy booted feet dragging some bodies behind them, and blood in the trail. These tracks belonged to hobgoblins using razorvine (a rare vine that's like barbed wire) to drag some living prisoners away.
The PCs decided to head out after the hobgoblins to see if they could save Silverleaf (an elf who went there about a month? ago with a party of adventurers, who was captured).
They followed the trail for a while and knew they were close when they heard the screams of Silverleaf. They spotted a group of heavily armed and armoured hoboglins - about 15 of them - torturing Silverleaf and a pair of human women (Morgan Ironwolf and Sister Rebecca).
The hobgoblin commander on watch spotted Shamon and we had a fight on our hands. It lasted about 7 rounds:
Round 1: Umar and Talesid move up to challenge the commander and hit him pretty hard. Shamon moves up to Divine Challenge the hobgoblin Fleshcarver (the torturer) but can't get quite close enough; he Dominates him instead. Aiden, Kiva, and the two elven archers start firing. The commander is killed.
At this point the players realize that none of these guys are minions.
The four archers lay into Umar and Talesid and the six soldiers form a line on them.
Round 2: Dominated, the Fleshcarver attacks the Warcaster. Talesid, beaten pretty badly, second winds, and Kiva switches spots with him with a Teleport. A lot of bursts and blasts go off. Kiva is able to drop an archer.
Round 3: The warcaster tries to drag Kiva behind the line but fails. The Fleshcarver displays his skill by making a close burst 2 attack with his glaive. Umar is hurt by the soldiers beating on him. The elven archers lay into the Fleshcarver. Talesid moves back into the fray.
Round 4: Shamon is pinned in difficult terrain near a number of soldiers. More damage is handed out; Umar drops. Kiva is beaten down pretty hard. Aiden and Talesid engage two of the archers in melee. The elven archers continue to pound on the Fleshcarver and start moving out of difficult terrain so they can get their skirmishing bonus.
Round 5: The Fleshcarver pounds on the PCs with his at-will close burst. Kiva drops. A number of soldiers are killed. The hobgoblin archers fire their arrows then try to engage the elves in melee.
Round 6: Fleshcarver's revenge. He smacks all the PCs around then spends an action point to do it again. Kiva and Aiden are on the ground. The archers focus on him, but don't drop him; they know that if he's able to get another attack off he'll probably kill them all, so Talesid sucks an OA to get to a flanking position, stabs him in the back and kills him. More hobgoblins are killed; at this point there are 3 soldiers and the two archers.
Round 7: Shamon intimidates a hobgoblin into surrendering. The soldiers attack but miss; the elven archers are able to avoid the hobgoblins and keep loosing arrows.
Round 8: The hobgoblins surrender.
The PCs made it through the wood to Lanath Keep. When they got there they saw tracks - lots of them - leaving the keep. One set of them got their attention: heavy booted feet dragging some bodies behind them, and blood in the trail. These tracks belonged to hobgoblins using razorvine (a rare vine that's like barbed wire) to drag some living prisoners away.
The PCs decided to head out after the hobgoblins to see if they could save Silverleaf (an elf who went there about a month? ago with a party of adventurers, who was captured).
They followed the trail for a while and knew they were close when they heard the screams of Silverleaf. They spotted a group of heavily armed and armoured hoboglins - about 15 of them - torturing Silverleaf and a pair of human women (Morgan Ironwolf and Sister Rebecca).
The hobgoblin commander on watch spotted Shamon and we had a fight on our hands. It lasted about 7 rounds:
Round 1: Umar and Talesid move up to challenge the commander and hit him pretty hard. Shamon moves up to Divine Challenge the hobgoblin Fleshcarver (the torturer) but can't get quite close enough; he Dominates him instead. Aiden, Kiva, and the two elven archers start firing. The commander is killed.
At this point the players realize that none of these guys are minions.
The four archers lay into Umar and Talesid and the six soldiers form a line on them.
Round 2: Dominated, the Fleshcarver attacks the Warcaster. Talesid, beaten pretty badly, second winds, and Kiva switches spots with him with a Teleport. A lot of bursts and blasts go off. Kiva is able to drop an archer.
Round 3: The warcaster tries to drag Kiva behind the line but fails. The Fleshcarver displays his skill by making a close burst 2 attack with his glaive. Umar is hurt by the soldiers beating on him. The elven archers lay into the Fleshcarver. Talesid moves back into the fray.
Round 4: Shamon is pinned in difficult terrain near a number of soldiers. More damage is handed out; Umar drops. Kiva is beaten down pretty hard. Aiden and Talesid engage two of the archers in melee. The elven archers continue to pound on the Fleshcarver and start moving out of difficult terrain so they can get their skirmishing bonus.
Round 5: The Fleshcarver pounds on the PCs with his at-will close burst. Kiva drops. A number of soldiers are killed. The hobgoblin archers fire their arrows then try to engage the elves in melee.
Round 6: Fleshcarver's revenge. He smacks all the PCs around then spends an action point to do it again. Kiva and Aiden are on the ground. The archers focus on him, but don't drop him; they know that if he's able to get another attack off he'll probably kill them all, so Talesid sucks an OA to get to a flanking position, stabs him in the back and kills him. More hobgoblins are killed; at this point there are 3 soldiers and the two archers.
Round 7: Shamon intimidates a hobgoblin into surrendering. The soldiers attack but miss; the elven archers are able to avoid the hobgoblins and keep loosing arrows.
Round 8: The hobgoblins surrender.
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