D&D 5E (2014) Sane Magic Item Prices

[Maxperson]

If I were a witch, I'd want a flying saucer.

I'd ride a duck.

 

[Lanefan]

Who actually wants a broom of flying, though? I've hated that ridiculous item since I first saw it. Give me winged boots, a carpet of flying, ring of air elemental command or something else. "Look ma! I'm riding a broom!" just doesn't cut it for me.

Any flying brooms you don't want, just send 'em my way. I still have at least 10 PCs of my own without one, and they'd each take one in a heartbeat if it was offered!

 

[Maxperson]

Any flying brooms you don't want, just send 'em my way. I still have at least 10 PCs of my own without one, and they'd each take one in a heartbeat if it was offered!

Trade you for that Holy Avenger

 

[Vaalingrade]

<<facepalm>>

I mean, seriously: who comes up with this stuff? It's like they asked a bunch of players what their favourite items are and then chopped the price down so that everyone could have one, rather than leaving them as special and unusual finds.

I mean, not that I want a doofy broom, but I think that's what they ought to do.

I feel like DMs put too much importance on specialness when it comes to magic just in general. I think players would rather have the thing than the hopes of getting it.

 

[Lanefan]

Trade you for that Holy Avenger

I can't think of a single PC I've ever played - OK, maybe one 3e Ranger who kinda thought he was a Paladin - who wouldn't take that trade in a heartbeat, provided some cash came my way with it.

 

[Azzy]

If I were a witch, I'd want a flying saucer.

This. But... a literal saucer that grows in size to accommodate a rider. Teacup optional.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I referenced it, because that's the assumed amount of money for a character of that level to have accumulated. Those hoards by the way, are pretty hard to come by. You need to take out an entire tribe of orcs or a dragon or something. But okay, so the group now has 3500 gold. I'll be generous and assume 4000 from some individual treasures. You want to hire 50 mercenaries at.....you tripled it to 6g each in total due to officers, so 300 per day. Now, you aren't generally going to find a dungeon or other similar threat that you'd want 50 mercs for close to town, but for kicks let's say that they are pretty close and they are a week away. 300 a day x 14 days(there and back) is 4200 gold. You're 700 in the hole and that's if you get there and then turn right around.

I've consistently said 30 mercs. At 6 gold per day that is 180 per day, not 300. Also, shocker, if we decimate a dungeon we likely get more money. So not only was I not in the hole (180*14 = 2,520 leaving me nearly 500 gold left) but I probably have a surplus at the end.

And, the point is that player don't do this. They never have. And it isn't because it can't be effective.

Right, so damage is half what you stated as many, if not most things start having resistance.

Except for Giants, Dragons, anything humanoid like drow, duergar, ect, Beholders, Genies, Aboleths, Hydra, Mindflayers, Purple Worms, Remorhaz's, quite a few undead, Slaad, Trolls, Wyverns...

It is a decently substantial list. Sure, Fiends, constructs, powerful undead all of these have resistance, but a lot of things don't.

Once or twice with that many casualties and that kind of attitude about their lives and you will find the pool of mercs dry up. You'll get a reputation for being death and they want to make money, not die.

Nothing in the rules about that. That is just you making up things. Sure, a DM might play it that way. Or they might play it like "hey, they took us to get wealthy beyond our wildest dreams, and sure, five of us died, but you think you'd do better solo?" and you might get more people.

Adventuring is a dangerous profession.

And again, the entire point is that players don't even try this. Because they don't want mercenary armies fighting their battles for them. Not because it isn't effective, but because it is BORING for most players.

Yet your damage number assumed a 100% hit rate, instead of a hit rate that will be lower, maybe considerably lower than 50%.

And yet, again, we had no AC numbers to compare it too. Like I said.

Your assumed optimal condition will rarely come to pass. It's basically white room arguing and white room stuff isn't helpful.

I'm point out "Hey, this works. If this is something that players wanted to do, they would do it. Therefor saying the only thing holding them back is a lack of gold isn't right"

I don't need to prove anything beyond the basics

Oh. So you aren't getting them for 300 per day. 300 per day assumes bottom of the barrel mercs, not scouts which are all the equivalent of 3rd level characters. So now the 4200g cost for that close 1 week out and 1 week back trip just shot up in price. You can no longer afford it, not that you really could before, either.

Great, you can show me where in the book it says that? Quoting the actual rules in the PHB or DMG? Because, that again sounds like you are making a call that isn't yours to make. Nothing says how powerful a "skilled" hireling is. Scouts are CR 1/2. A player character is considered to be CR = Level. So, these guys aren't even level 1 equivalents according to most spells in the game.

So, again, I'm not trying to argue this point. I'm showing that this is effective enough that if the only limitation was players getting money, players would be doing this. A lot. All the time.

THEY AREN'T DOING THIS, BECAUSE IT IS BORING. THEREFORE MORE MONEY WON'T CAUSE THEM TO SUDDENLY DO THIS.

I thing maybe in another four or five posts you might get my actual point. Instead of trying to argue this.

Sure. I personally wouldn't have a problem with it. If you wanted to shell out what is probably going to be 10k in gold to kill one bone devil, go for it.

First, it is a lack of money. At least at low levels. A 5th level group isn't going to want to shell out 5-10k in gold(pretty much all they've earned to this point) just to win one encounter. Second, it's not really that effective. You're rarely going to get optimal conditions, and you're rarely going to get a monster stupid enough to sit out in the open against 50+ guys. That bone devil has a 13 Int and has lived millennia. It's not going to fight your small army. It's going to leave and come back later. Or more likely, leave and then bribe the leader of your mercs with a deal with the devil to turn on you and then your up a creek. Those devilish devils!

30 individuals. 2500 gold. And it is obviously going to be more than one encounter. Good lord, I said that the worse case scenario was this single CR appropriate devil took out 3 or 4 scouts. But, you know, a CR 9 devil isn't just chilling alone in a room. Bet he might have, say, a cult? A cult of humans. They don't have damage resistance, so that is the full (potential because accuracy is a thing, but I'm not doing the full math here to make a single point ) 360 damage. Cult Fanatics have about 33 hp, so lets say that is 10 of them of killed in the first round. The players go and charge the Bone Devil, and what in one world was a 4 vs 11 brawl with multiple spellcasters and a terrible devil becomes a 34 vs 1 fight that is a guaranteed win for the party.

I mean, sure, it can try and run. Longbows have a reach of 600 ft, the scouts can move 30. So... 60 turns for a devil with 40 ft of movement to get out of there? It has 3.

And, AGAIN, my point isn't to argue the semantics of exactly how effective this is or isn't. Maybe you only hire 15 mercs so you can get a bunch of silvered arrows for cutting through devil resistance. Or maybe not, since I had 500 gold left, I could get 50 silver arrows, that is plenty. We could go back and forth on the exact details all day.

BUT PLAYERS AREN'T DOING THIS. THEY FIND OTHER PEOPLE DOING THE FIGHTING AND HAVING CAKEWALK GUARANTEED VICTORIES BORING.

That's why I don't buy the argument that, "If you give players too much gold, they will hire a mercenary army to win all battles for you." If that was what players wanted to do, they would do it. But they don't, because they don't want to do that.

 

[Maxperson]

I've consistently said 30 mercs. At 6 gold per day that is 180 per day, not 300. Also, shocker, if we decimate a dungeon we likely get more money. So not only was I not in the hole (180*14 = 2,520 leaving me nearly 500 gold left) but I probably have a surplus at the end.

That was before you used scouts instead of bottom of the barrel mercenaries.

And, the point is that player don't do this. They never have. And it isn't because it can't be effective.

Effective yes. Cost effective? Rarely.

Except for Giants, Dragons, anything humanoid like drow, duergar, ect, Beholders, Genies, Aboleths, Hydra, Mindflayers, Purple Worms, Remorhaz's, quite a few undead, Slaad, Trolls, Wyverns...

Most of those, if played properly, kill your men. With very few exceptions, they are all intelligent and wouldn't straight up fight your 30 men.

Nothing in the rules about that. That is just you making up things. Sure, a DM might play it that way. Or they might play it like "hey, they took us to get wealthy beyond our wildest dreams, and sure, five of us died, but you think you'd do better solo?" and you might get more people.

Yep. I'm assuming that the DM is roleplaying the NPCs, rather than making them computer bots with no thought other than what the player orders them to do. And 5? Please. You'd lost most to all of your men to a well played, well, almost anything on that list up there.

Adventuring is a dangerous profession.

Probably why they aren't adventurers.

And yet, again, we had no AC numbers to compare it too. Like I said.

You don't need them. Assuming a 40% hit rate is much closer to accurate than 100%.

Great, you can show me where in the book it says that? Quoting the actual rules in the PHB or DMG? Because, that again sounds like you are making a call that isn't yours to make. Nothing says how powerful a "skilled" hireling is. Scouts are CR 1/2. A player character is considered to be CR = Level. So, these guys aren't even level 1 equivalents according to most spells in the game.

It says it in the PHB under services. The 2gp a day is rock bottom, which means basic level 1 equivalent mercenaries. Your scouts are much better and would cost much more. CR 1/2 by the way is around a 3rd or 4th level PC. And no. No PC is considered CR = level, because CR = able to take on 4 characters of that level. A level 1 PC is unable to do that. A 3rd level PC probably loses to 4 1st level PCs.

THEY AREN'T DOING THIS, BECAUSE IT IS BORING. THEREFORE MORE MONEY WON'T CAUSE THEM TO SUDDENLY DO THIS.

It's hardly the only game breaking thing that they can do with a lot of money. And by game breaking, I mean breaks at low levels. At higher levels, power shifts and lots of money doesn't break things.

30 individuals. 2500 gold. And it is obviously going to be more than one encounter. Good lord, I said that the worse case scenario was this single CR appropriate devil took out 3 or 4 scouts. But, you know, a CR 9 devil isn't just chilling alone in a room. Bet he might have, say, a cult? A cult of humans. They don't have damage resistance, so that is the full (potential because accuracy is a thing, but I'm not doing the full math here to make a single point ) 360 damage. Cult Fanatics have about 33 hp, so lets say that is 10 of them of killed in the first round. The players go and charge the Bone Devil, and what in one world was a 4 vs 11 brawl with multiple spellcasters and a terrible devil becomes a 34 vs 1 fight that is a guaranteed win for the party.

Why do you assume stupidity on the part of the devil? He's not going to get into a straight up fight against a superior force. There are other methods that cause you to lose that he would employ.

I mean, sure, it can try and run. Longbows have a reach of 600 ft, the scouts can move 30. So... 60 turns for a devil with 40 ft of movement to get out of there? It has 3.

In a white room... In a real game, it's not going to be fighting you on an open plain.

That's why I don't buy the argument that, "If you give players too much gold, they will hire a mercenary army to win all battles for you." If that was what players wanted to do, they would do it. But they don't, because they don't want to do that.

Cool. Not the only thing that they can do with money.

 

[Lanefan]

Most of those, if played properly, kill your men. With very few exceptions, they are all intelligent and wouldn't straight up fight your 30 men.

And some of them wouldn't even have to. A Dragon's fear aura or a Mind Flayer's psionics will (or bloody well should!) clear the field of any schlub mercenaries real fast, and separate the wheat from the chaff.

Giants and their ilk, though, are one opponent type against whom this small-army tactic could and IMO would potentially be very effective.

 

[Stalker0]

A 3rd level PC probably loses to 4 1st level PCs.

Depends on the class of course (there's always a wizard casting sleep), but I would say its not until you get to 5th level (second attack, 3rd level spells) that a character would have a reasonable chance against 4 1st level PCs. The force multiplier effect in 5e is very very very strong.

So I'll pitch my hat into this argument, as I have used large groups of 1st level schlubs on several occasions, both against my pcs and against monsters.

Now melee guys, they are mince meat. But archers? Watch out. You give them some open terrain to spread out, and you are in trouble. Assuming 20 archers +4 (+2 base, +2 dex) against a AC 19 (a good solid AC for PCs, and exceptionally high for most monsters, that's CR 15+ level ACs normally). That means you are getting 5 hits and a crit each round on average, or about 43.5 damage....better than fireball. Add another 6.5 damage for every point of AC lower than that, so a perfect 50 at AC 18. You give me your 5th level Greatsword fighter (AC 18), and I will statistically drop him in round 1, with a reasonable chance to kill him if the dice go my way just a bit.

Now a single 43.5 damage barrage is decent, but the trick is its hard to kill a large group of archers that are spread out, so your going to get that damage round after round, and suddenly it starts to matter a lot.

So obviously a group like this isn't going into a cave to hunt monsters. But if I have an open field, I'll take that 20 guys against a lot of stuff. People talk about monster fighting intelligently against them, but the thing is the longbow outranges almost every other attack in the game. Anywhere you try to maneuver to hit the archers..... the entire archer line is likely to be able to hit you.