Savage Species - 1 HD ECLs (error ? )

[Kae'Yoss]

The way you phrased it kinda implies that you could be a hobgoblin fighter 1 AND keep the hobgoblin HD plus the fighter HD. Then using the Hobgoblin ECL of 2 you would be a level 3 character. But I have never heard any version that went that way. And the skill points column shows that they did not mean that here either.

1 HD buggers usually exchange that HD with a class level, and indeed that "racial HD" is in truth 1 level of warrior. And you could indeed be a hobgoblin fighter 1 AND keep the hobgoblin HD plus the fighter HD. You then would, essentially, be a hobgoblin warrior 1/ fighter 1. You would have an ECL of 3 (but only character level 2, the other's from adjustments).

 

[Caliban]

First, elves don't have even 1 racial hit die.

Sure they do. They are a 1 HD humanoid. That 1 HD is replaced by the 1st level of whatever class they take (the ones in the MM take the Warrior class).

Second, the ECL formula presumes that you are using classes, so it is automatic that the 1 HD goes away. So the correct ECL remains #HD(0) + #AD(0) = 0 ECL.

The table in Savage Species doesn't assume a class. See the side bar about 1- HD creatures on the bottom of page 13. At the very end it give the option of keeping the 1-HD, and then adding class levels.

Can you provide an example high elf char which includes an ECL of 1 just for being a high elf?

They don't give an example, but they mention it as an option.

Maybe the elf was lost when very young and spent a hundred years being raised by wolves. He never got any formal training, so he was just a 1-HD humanoid. Then he became a barbarian, or whatever.

 

[BryonD]

Sure they do. They are a 1 HD humanoid. That 1 HD is replaced by the 1st level of whatever class they take (the ones in the MM take the Warrior class).

Can you show me an example from any WotC product?
(Prior to SS)

The table in Savage Species doesn't assume a class. See the side bar about 1- HD creatures on the bottom of page 13. At the very end it give the option of keeping the 1-HD, and then adding class levels.

Would you agree that this method is highly counter-intuitive?
So an Elf can be a 1-D8 HD creature with 8 skill points (or not, the tables for elves just say "as class" apparently over-riding Table 2-1) and Base saves of +2/+0/+0. Now he wants to pick up a level of Bard. So he can either earn 1000 exp points and forever be behind by 1000 exp points, so that he can keep this bonanza, or he can become an elf (0 racial HD) Bard 1. He gains several perks for this, but actually loses 1 hit point (on average assuming a non-PC, 2 hit points for a PC) and hiw base fort save goes down by 2.

Can a human have 1 racial HD? They are not listed in SS.

What is the difference between a 1 racial-HD elf and an elf commoner 1? Other than the commoner being clearly inferior?
What are his class skills? Racial class skills come from the MM entries. But the elf does not have an entry for his race, only for warriors of his race.

Now I can not point to any place that expressly denies that humans and elves can have 1 HD, but the first paragraph under NPC classes (DMG page 36) clearly states two times that these classes represent "the rest of the world". So I believe that the lack of a denial is simply because it was so obvious that they did not even think to mention it.

So it seems clear to me that the authors of SS have changed the rules for some odd reason, and then they turn around and say, you are better off to not use this rule and instead convert back to the way it used to be.

So, all that aside. Clearly no errata is required.

 

[Shalewind]

"So an Elf can be a 1-D8 HD creature with 8 skill points (or not, the tables for elves just say "as class" apparently over-riding Table 2-1) and Base saves of +2/+0/+0. Now he wants to pick up a level of Bard. So he can either earn 1000 exp points and forever be behind by 1000 exp points, so that he can keep this bonanza, or he can become an elf (0 racial HD) Bard 1. He gains several perks for this, but actually loses 1 hit point (on average assuming a non-PC, 2 hit points for a PC) and hiw base fort save goes down by 2."

By the rules. Yes. This can happen.

"Can a human have 1 racial HD? They are not listed in SS."
They sure can.

Would you ever do this. No. I wouldn't ever try to construct these races in such a fashion. Why? Cause they aren't really monsters. But SS would have sounded kind of silly if they had said, this system works for all races, types, and creatures, EXCEPT the core races.

Sure, the whole replacement hit die thing is a little complex. It works well for upper level creatures that might not want to advance in their monster class right away. Say a minotaur raised by humans with stunted growth, etc...

 

[Knight Otu]

Can you show me an example from any WotC product?
(Prior to SS)

Would you accept kobolds? They have 1/2 racial hit dice.

 

[Caliban]

Can you show me an example from any WotC product?
(Prior to SS)

Didn't I just say they don't give an example? It's kind of irrelevent, since the SS is an optional rules supplement, not a core rulebook.

So it seems clear to me that the authors of SS have changed the rules for some odd reason, and then they turn around and say, you are better off to not use this rule and instead convert back to the way it used to be.

Of course they changed the rule. That's what everyone has been pointing out.

The entire SS book is optional rules and feats. This is just one more.

 

[BryonD]

Didn't I just say they don't give an example? It's kind of irrelevent, since the SS is an optional rules supplement, not a core rulebook.

Of course they changed the rule. That's what everyone has been pointing out.

The entire SS book is optional rules and feats. This is just one more.

Everyone? I haven't seen anyone point that out.

Anyway, if I do use this optional rule, what are class skills for a 1-HD elf with no classes? Shouldn't they fill us in on that part of their optional rule?

Obviously, we are not going to get any further with this. I think you are splitting hairs and they have created a completely unneeded complication.

I also think that if you are going to shift over to rules replacement from rules supplement, it is worth at least clearly stating that you have done so.

I won't claim your level of expertise on the 3E ruleset, but I can not think of any other supplements that change core mechanics without saying that they are doing so.

I'll accept that no errata is required to fix a mistake and just change my position to, I think they should have errata just to improve on the poor design. IMHO.

::SHRUG::

 

[BryonD]

Would you accept kobolds? They have 1/2 racial hit dice.

That is probably the best example available.

For some reason, the idea of hordes of classless kobolds never bothered me. But, by a strict interpretation, they should be handled the same as the core PC races.

Of course this could lead into a whole tangent debate about 1HD monsters losing that HD. I think it is a clunky mechanic shoehorned into the D&D sacred cow of HD being tied to class level.

 

[Spatula]

You can only replace a Racial HD with a Class HD if the Race has *no* Level Adjustment.

Savage Species mentions no such restriction.

 

[Malin Genie]

Would you accept kobolds? They have 1/2 racial hit dice.

Disclaimer: I don't own Savage Species.

However: the MM kobolds dont have "half a hit die". The reason they have d4 HD is that the default kobold is not a warrior (cf the default orc or hobgoblin) but a commoner (so has 1 HD, it's just a d4.) If you look at skills and saves etc it all works correctly.