Savage Species - 1 HD ECLs (error ? )

[BryonD]

No. I think it is quite simple.

The table assumes that you will be giving up the 1HD for your class level when you actually create the character, as explained in the first paragraph of the sidebar.

Right. Which means that the starting ECL is wrong. Please see my very first post starting this thread.

If you use the option to keep the HD, then you don't use the starting class skill points, as explained in the last paragraph of the sidebar.

Fine. But you miss the point that the table contradicts itself. You have denied this. But the either/or case you just presented demonstrates that one column of Table 2-2 is wrong no matter what you do.

I have never said it was difficult. I have repeatedly stated that there is an error. Your own examples and explainations have proven it.

 

[Caliban]

No. I think it is quite simple.



Right. Which means that the starting ECL is wrong. Please see my very first post starting this thread.

No, it's not wrong. One way or the other, at first level you will have an effective character level of 1.

If you have a class level, that's an effective character level of 1.

If you instead keep the monster HD, that's an effective character level of 1.

Fine. But you miss the point that the table contradicts itself. You have denied this. But the either/or case you just presented demonstrates that one column of Table 2-2 is wrong no matter what you do.

I have never said it was difficult. I have repeatedly stated that there is an error. Your own examples and explainations have proven it.

*shrug* It's not in error, it just doesn't work the way you think it should.

I understand what they mean. It's a little counter-intuitive, but I really don't think it's a big deal.

Your making a mountain out of a molehill.

 

[BryonD]

This has become a mountain out of a molehill.

But it IS an error.

It is not possible to make a character for which all of Table 2-2 is correct. I do not understand why you refuse to admit that.

If you have a class level, that's an effective character level of 1.

But class levels are not included in Starting ECL. If your spin is correct, then the defintion of Starting ECL for bugbear is different than the definition of Starting ECL for high elf. Which is an error.

If you instead keep the monster HD, that's an effective character level of 1.

In which case Skill Points of Base Creature is wrong. Which is an error.

Either way, there is an error.

The simple solution would be to pick one and have table 2-2 be correct for the selection. Then have a sidebar that offers the alternative and explain what to change.

Instead Table 2-2 assumes one option for one column and the other for another. Which is wrong.

If I am wrong, it will be trivially easy to prove it. Show me a high elf character that meets the following criteria:

The definition of starting ECL is the same for both the Bugbear and the High Elf. (So ECL = class level plus starting ECL).
All columns of Table 2-2 are correctly implemented as presented in the table.

You can't do it because if you stay consistent with the Bugbear you must

A) have a 2 HD elf/class1 with skills that don't match the skill points of base creature column

OR

B) have a 1 HD elf(classless) with skills that don't match the skill points of base creature column

OR

C) have a zero racial HD Elf class1 with an ECL = 1, so the Starting ECL is not correctly consistent with the bugbear.


No matter what there is a contradiction.

The fix is simple. Errata the table to go with the presumptive preferential option. The high elf drops its racial HD and the Hit Dice column = 0, and the Starting ECL = 0. Then offer in the sidebar an option to keep the HD for an extra ECL of 1. Of course, then you still need to offer some guidance on what skill set should be used as class skills for that HD.

 

[Caliban]

*shrug* Whatever. This is incredibly trivial, and there really is no point to continuing the debate.

 

[BryonD]

I agree, there is no point in continuing.

It is trivial to you and me. But it may not be trivial to someone who doesn't have the same level of rules mastery and doesn't understand why their Drow Ranger or Aasimar Paladin appears to have just lost a level. Or really does lose a level because their DM simply follows the bugbear example.