Savage species experiences
- Thread starter thullgrim
- Start date
MrFilthyIke
First Post
Pants said:One of the players is playing an Azer (using SS rules) and while he has the best stats in the group, his Low HD (only 2 HD at 6th level...) make him verrrry susceptible to harm. He's still pretty beefcake though and he has an AC of fricken 26!
Take some Toughness feats if it becomes an issue...or hang back and shoot things w/ a bow/crossbow
I'll just echo what lacunae says, watch out for big strength builds. In the campaign that I DM, one guy played an ogre, pumped his strength, and was doing massive amounts of damage with his greataxe. Add in reach . . . ugh.
Unfortunately at that point in the campaign I couldn't just throw in some spell casters and exploit his low will save. He ended up getting a bit bored bashing everything and has since moved on to another character. To a human, incidentally.
Another player is playing a troll and enjoys grappling. Regeneration is tough to deal with sometimes; but since most folks know that fire/acid hurts trolls, it's reasonable for me to throw fire/acid damage the troll's way.
And I've also got a ghaele in my campaign. Yes, her special abilities are killing me sometimes, especially the incorporeal ball form with the color rays.
But these guys really struggled through the lower levels, to echo the point about low hit points. Now they're finally getting to the payoff, and they're enjoying it.
As a DM, you just need to make sure you take into account the powers when designing encounters. Now that the ghaele has hold monster, I make sure to throw in an extra monster or two (if they have low will saves). I make sure that any spell casters I create have a way out of a grapple, and when the ogre was in the group, I made sure that climactic encounters had at least one guy with lots of hit points.
Running a campaign with monsters is doable, just a bit more work for the DM when the monsters are fully grown.
Unfortunately at that point in the campaign I couldn't just throw in some spell casters and exploit his low will save. He ended up getting a bit bored bashing everything and has since moved on to another character. To a human, incidentally.
Another player is playing a troll and enjoys grappling. Regeneration is tough to deal with sometimes; but since most folks know that fire/acid hurts trolls, it's reasonable for me to throw fire/acid damage the troll's way.
And I've also got a ghaele in my campaign. Yes, her special abilities are killing me sometimes, especially the incorporeal ball form with the color rays.
But these guys really struggled through the lower levels, to echo the point about low hit points. Now they're finally getting to the payoff, and they're enjoying it.
As a DM, you just need to make sure you take into account the powers when designing encounters. Now that the ghaele has hold monster, I make sure to throw in an extra monster or two (if they have low will saves). I make sure that any spell casters I create have a way out of a grapple, and when the ogre was in the group, I made sure that climactic encounters had at least one guy with lots of hit points.
Running a campaign with monsters is doable, just a bit more work for the DM when the monsters are fully grown.
I'm running a campaign now that makes heavy use of monster classes. Here's what I currently have:
4th-level rakshasa
4th-level human druid
4th-level nezumi rogue
3rd-level trumpet archon
2nd-level minotaur
2nd-level lizardman
2nd-level frost giant
2nd-level human rogue
2nd-level human wizard
2nd-level ogre mage
I deal with the "paper tiger" effect thusly: at any level at which a monster class does not gain an increase in hit dice, and hence no increase in hit points or skill points (heretofor referred to as a "shaft level"), the class still receives hit points equal to its Con modifier and skill points equal to its Int modifier (if positive). So far, this has worked out pretty well, although obviously this doesn't do much good to toughen up a monster without a good Con.
One thing to watch out for when using monster classes: outsiders! They have Fighter BAB, Monk saving throws, and Rogue skill points. Of course, this means that outsiders tend to have pretty high level adjustments (+4 or more), but that doesn't manifest itself at 1st level.
Many of the classes in the appendix are just not well-designed. For instance, the trumpet archon gains the ability to fly at 2nd level. Obviously, that eliminates a slew of challenges that characters of that level are supposed to have to use their wits to overcome. The ghaele has an insane amount of special abilities, but its lighter on hit points than a wizard; it receives Con bonuses, but they are intentionally delayed untill very late in its 20-level progression. Some monsters receive no armor proficiency, yet receive insufficient natural arnor at first level.
Still, we seem to be having plenty of fun.
4th-level rakshasa
4th-level human druid
4th-level nezumi rogue
3rd-level trumpet archon
2nd-level minotaur
2nd-level lizardman
2nd-level frost giant
2nd-level human rogue
2nd-level human wizard
2nd-level ogre mage
I deal with the "paper tiger" effect thusly: at any level at which a monster class does not gain an increase in hit dice, and hence no increase in hit points or skill points (heretofor referred to as a "shaft level"), the class still receives hit points equal to its Con modifier and skill points equal to its Int modifier (if positive). So far, this has worked out pretty well, although obviously this doesn't do much good to toughen up a monster without a good Con.
One thing to watch out for when using monster classes: outsiders! They have Fighter BAB, Monk saving throws, and Rogue skill points. Of course, this means that outsiders tend to have pretty high level adjustments (+4 or more), but that doesn't manifest itself at 1st level.
Many of the classes in the appendix are just not well-designed. For instance, the trumpet archon gains the ability to fly at 2nd level. Obviously, that eliminates a slew of challenges that characters of that level are supposed to have to use their wits to overcome. The ghaele has an insane amount of special abilities, but its lighter on hit points than a wizard; it receives Con bonuses, but they are intentionally delayed untill very late in its 20-level progression. Some monsters receive no armor proficiency, yet receive insufficient natural arnor at first level.
Still, we seem to be having plenty of fun.
Last edited:
ichabod
Legned
I have used the feats and templates on monsters, and that has worked out really well in that some of the stuff surprised the players. Nothing turned out over powered.
The best thing for me is the monster races. I've replace all ECL races with monster classes. This allows not only any race for a low level character, but it lets the player decide how much they want to blow on their race. If they just want some of the benefits of the race they don't have to take all the levels, and they can concentrate on the class levels. If you treat racial levels as prestige classes, this also allows them to spread out the shaft levels.
I haven't tried it with big monsters from the MM yet, just low LA races of my own design. I'd carefully look at their classes and ECLs though, as my experience and what I'm reading here makes me think "great ideas, poor in the execution."
I'm making an item called a Dragon Helm, which allows you to take levels as a dragon, and eventually turn into one. Since classes aren't given for the dragons, I've been working up my own. Consider the copper dragon. Wyrmling has 5 HD and LA 2, so 7 levels to get all those benefits. No problem. Very young, 3 more HD, 1 more LA, 4 more levels to get those benefits. Young is exactly the same: 3 more HD, 1 more LA. But compare young and very young. Every increase is the same, but young also gets extra fly speed, +2 con, +2 int, +2 wis, +2 cha, and a caster level. Sure, it's maneuverabilty and size bonuses go down, but with everything else it gets, that is certainly a more powerful age category, but it takes up the same number of levels. Now, this is not something that can't be dealt with using the ideas of the book, it just doesn't seem to be dealt with very well in the book.
The best thing for me is the monster races. I've replace all ECL races with monster classes. This allows not only any race for a low level character, but it lets the player decide how much they want to blow on their race. If they just want some of the benefits of the race they don't have to take all the levels, and they can concentrate on the class levels. If you treat racial levels as prestige classes, this also allows them to spread out the shaft levels.
I haven't tried it with big monsters from the MM yet, just low LA races of my own design. I'd carefully look at their classes and ECLs though, as my experience and what I'm reading here makes me think "great ideas, poor in the execution."
I'm making an item called a Dragon Helm, which allows you to take levels as a dragon, and eventually turn into one. Since classes aren't given for the dragons, I've been working up my own. Consider the copper dragon. Wyrmling has 5 HD and LA 2, so 7 levels to get all those benefits. No problem. Very young, 3 more HD, 1 more LA, 4 more levels to get those benefits. Young is exactly the same: 3 more HD, 1 more LA. But compare young and very young. Every increase is the same, but young also gets extra fly speed, +2 con, +2 int, +2 wis, +2 cha, and a caster level. Sure, it's maneuverabilty and size bonuses go down, but with everything else it gets, that is certainly a more powerful age category, but it takes up the same number of levels. Now, this is not something that can't be dealt with using the ideas of the book, it just doesn't seem to be dealt with very well in the book.
ichabod said:
Yes, as a DM I don't think it's necessary--or even desirable--to follow the book's insistance that players have to take every level in a monster class before they can start another class. I'd rather have a party with only a partial medusa than a full-blown one.
You might want to check out the Draconomicon. It doesn't provide monster classes, but it does provide LA's for the various dragon age ranges.
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