Savage Species -- Forced Alignment Change?

[Azaar]

Okay... while perusing my copy of SS, I stumble across the Alignment Change section, which in my mind is far too small and could have used an example or three to clarify what WoTC meant. So... I'll lay out the groundwork, and you all can tell me whether I've got it straight or not (I probably don't, but hey, that's why I'm asking).

Let's say I have a 10th level LG fighter who, alas, gets drained by a 15th level CE vampire wizard, and arises the 1d4 days after burial. While still dead, the original vampire wizard is slain. So, when our intrepid fighter arises as a vampire 1d4 days later, he finds himself without a vampire master.

Now, according to my interpretation of the rules (which might not be right, I admit, hence why I'm asking), the DC to keep your original alignment is:

10 + 1/2 goal monster's HD + goal monster's Wis modifier + additional modifiers based on alignment difference

Now... since the vampire's HD would be the same as the fighter's HD before crossing over into undeath, does that mean that it's half the wizard's HD, or half of the vampire wizard's HD? And, assuming a Wis of 12 for the fighter and a Wis of 15 for the vampire wizard, do you use the would-be master vampire wizard's Wis modifier, or the fighter's Wis modifier?

Assuming that everything is based off the fighter's stats, the calculation should be as follows:

DC = 10 + (1/2 x 10) + 1 + 10 (for going from LG to CE) = 10 + 5 + 1 + 10 = DC 26 to resist forced alignment change from LG to CE

Now, based off the original vampire wizard's stats:

DC = 10 + (1/2 x 15) + 1 + 10 = 10 + 7 (rounding down here, since it's 7.5) + 2 + 10 = DC 29 to resist forced alignment change from LG to CE

Now... which one of these is correct, the fighter-based DC calculations, or the wizard-based DC calculations? This would be a great help to me in figuring out for certain just how this is supposed to be calculated.

Note: Edited to fix the calculations. Still would be DC 29, though (since I forgot that 15 gets a +2 modifier for stats and erroreously put 1 instead).

 

[hammymchamham]

don't forget to always round down.

 

[Artoomis]

I don't have the book, but the "10" modifer from LG to CE has me wondering if it's easier to go from LG to CE than, say, LE to CE?

 

[Azaar]

I'm actually halfway tempted to rule that alignment changes should only matter for undead if the master is still alive and just not worry about computing DCs for a forced alignment change. If the master is dead, then (depending on the method of creation) have the character take the Emancipated Spawn prestige class... unfortunately, that PrC is useless with vampires and liches (since they retain all their skills and feats anyway). Ehh, maybe I should just let them be the one-in-a-million exceptions and not force the newly undead character into an alignment shift. Thoughts on that, or should I stick with having players roll Will saves as per SS?

 

[aliensex]

"Goal Monster" refers to what you will be turning INTO. This section was geared more towards becoming a lycanthrope than anything else as far as I can tell. So, in this case, it will be 1/2 the HD of the creature the PC will become, and since becoming a vampire does not alter the number of hit dice he has (just changes what die he uses), then it would be 5 from your example.

"Goal Monster" is not what initiated the change, its the monster he will become that he is resisting against, so that is what sets the DC.

 

[Azaar]

So I'm actually looking at a third option as the correct answer:

DC base 10 + (1/2 x character class levels) + the foe's Wis modifier + additional alignment modifiers

So, using my 10th-level human fighter and 15th-level vampire wizard with the 15 Wis example...

DC = 10 + (1/2 x 10) + 2 + 10 = 10 + 5 + 2 + 10 = DC 27 Will save

With that calculation, I'm using the base 10, plus the 5 (for half of the 10 HD), plus 2 for the would-be vampire master's Wis modifier, plus the additional alignment change modifiers.

Is this what you meant? If so... then I feel stupid, because this makes so much more sense. Pity they didn't have an example in SS to make everything clear for us.

 

[Felix]

Why are you using the "foe's wisdom mod"? It's the wisdom mod of the Goal creature: ie, your vampire fighter.

The DC of the Will save was right in your first post:
10 + (1/2 HD) + Fighter's New WIS mod + Alignment difference mod
10+5+1?+10
DC 26 Will save. Sure hope you got Iron Will as one of your feats.

Artoomis: yeah, moving along one axis is easier than moving to a diametrically opposed alignment. I think moving only one step lowers the DC by 5, but I don't have my book so I'm not terribly sure. Something like that. Two steps is +0 DC, three is +5. Roundabout.

 

[aliensex]

Yeah, an example would have made a lot of difference, oh well.

You're still not 100% there. Notice that it is also the "Goal Monster's" Wis modifier that is added. So it will actually be the fighter's Wis modifier (modified by whatever he is changing into).

The best way to think about it is that the affliction that is causing the alignment change (Lycanthropy, Vampirism, etc.) has caused a "split" in the characters mind. There is now two versions of the character, the person he is now, and the monster he will become. So it is a contest of wills between the two.

So, as an exampley kind of thing:

Human fighter 10 turning into Vampire spawn (I'll say fighter has a Wis score of 12, so +1 modifier). Assuming the Vampire spawn DOES NOT affect his Wis score, the DC is:

10 + 5 (half the spawn's HD which doesn't change) + 1 (since he will have the same Wis modifier) + 10 (for the HUGE alignment shift). So this results in a DC of 26. If the fighter's Wis modifier is 0, then the DC is 25. The monster that is affecting him is not involved at all, it is purley and internal struggle.

 

[Azaar]

Aha! I have seen the light now. Sure took me long enough. Thanks, gang.