Savage Species is AWESOME...and this is why

[Desdichado]

Actually, some of the art on the Wizards web site I can't find in the book anywhere... that armored troll in particular comes to mind.

 

[Spatula]

They can be awakened, or otherwise have their intelligence raised, just like constructs or unintelligent undead could.

Vermin can't be awakened, actually. They're not a valid target for the original spell, and while SS provides Awaken Construct and Awaken Undead spells, it doesn't provide Awaken Vermin. But even if it did, the spell should (as Korimyr suggests) turn the vermin into a magical beast, since by definition vermin have no intelligence. Constructs and undead are both capable of being intelligent.

Also, you can't raise the intelligence score of a vermin since it doesn't have one.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Yeah, my only beef with it is that it didn't push the envelope far enough.

Awakened constructs and undead, sure. But there should be vermin and oozes, too. And it should've provided things for awakened animals...

So if awakened vermin are magical beasts, what are intelligent oozes? Abberations, maybe?

I mean, if Masters of the Wild had bloody opposable weapons, I thought this would be golden for it.

So boo for that...but yay for basically everything else...

...and I'm refraining judgement of the ECL of the half-ogre until I see the power level of 3.5e characters...which I have a suspicion will be slightly more potent than 3e characters. And I don't have much of a problem with it, since the monsters (if that pit fiend's anything to go by) will also be getting a bumpdy-bump.

 

[jasamcarl]

Agreed Enceladus, SS is pretty good (mostly for the templates), but I don't see myself using it as an essential book in my game.

On the other hand, FFG's Monster's Handbook is about 100 times more useful to me, and is much better balanced. Not to mention it has tons of ways to modify existing monsters with templates, feats, additional special abilities and weaknesses- a must have book in my opinion.

Haven't checked out the Monster Handbook, so I will not comment on that, but I would like some details on what you find unbalanced about SS, especially given the obviously aggressive application of Level Adjustments. If anything, playing a monster character will put you behind on the average party's power curve. And lets not press the Half-ogre issue.

As to its use to a DM, I would point to the aforementions templates as well as the monster classes, which list CR by level. If you wanted a finer and, more importantly, downward gradient on the challenge presented by many monsters, you now have the tools.

Finally, given the diversity of DMing styles as well as monsters detailed in the book, I'm dubious that all DMs would be so conservative in rejecting all attempts by players to take on these roles, especially given the hyper-literalist DND take on fantasy. Is an ogre really that much more out there than an orc? Or an Astral Deva? Especially now that they have tailored to be playable from first level?

 

[John Smallberries]

Savage Species is the first supplement I've bought in over ayear that makes me want to restart my campaign from scratch just to incorporate it.

It's that cool.

In other words, I finally got the CRUNCH I've been begging for.

I just like buying a book my *entire* group can use (or better yet---will buy their own copies of), rather than fluffy supplements that end up being read once then discarded.

***Keeping my fingers crossed for Races of Faerun. Go Bean Counters Go!***

 

[Vocenoctum]

Re: One disappointing thing...

, but was a desmodu harness. So boring. Damn bats !

You know, they were easily ignorable in the adventure, but then they were in MM2, now in SS! I mean, really, I've paid three times for bat people!

I don't really understand why Thri Kreen and Desmodu were reprinted in SS at all really.

 

[Vocenoctum]

For example, the starting ECL for 1 HD creatures should be less than it was, since part of starting ECL is hit dice, but that first hit die is lost. The sidebar didnt adequately state that.

I wish they'd made more of a point of seperating ECL, HD and Level Adjustments in the rules, but the charts handle it pretty well I think.

For 1hd creatures, they do have the option of taking that 1HD now, so the split is valid, but yeah, it could have been spelled out better.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Y'know what also might have been nice?

A little note:

"If you want to play a creature with a high starting ECL, but a low level adjustment, simply discard all the hit dice and their effects (save bonuses, base attack bonuses, hit points, etc) and grant the creatures a starting ECL of their LA +1 (for the first class level taken)."

Not sure how this would affect balance, but it seems a pretty straightforward interpretation. Ditch the HD and all the trappings, BOOYAH!, you've got a lower starting ECL.

 

[Gez]

Yeah, my only beef with it is that it didn't push the envelope far enough.

Awakened constructs and undead, sure. But there should be vermin and oozes, too. And it should've provided things for awakened animals...

So if awakened vermin are magical beasts, what are intelligent oozes? Abberations, maybe?

Mind if I shamelessly plug this ?

 

[Alzrius]

As for class hit die for Undead, what's the ambiguity? Undead creatures use a d12 for every single hit die they receive, whether it's from class or from monster hit die.

That's what it seems like, but that's not true.

Look at the example creature for the Emancipated Spawn prestige class. She has four levels of Sorcerer, all d4's.

Originally posted by Spatula
They're not a valid target for the original spell, and while SS provides Awaken Construct and Awaken Undead spells, it doesn't provide Awaken Vermin.

Hmm, good point, I overlooked that detail. Wasn't there some spell for awakening Oozes as well though? I can't quite rightly recall.

But even if it did, the spell should (as Korimyr suggests) turn the vermin into a magical beast, since by definition vermin have no intelligence. Constructs and undead are both capable of being intelligent. Also, you can't raise the intelligence score of a vermin since it doesn't have one.

That doesn't quite hold up under scrutiny. Constructs by definition, don't have intelligence scores either, having an Int of "-" but they can be awakened also, and it doesn't change their type. While I can see Animals becoming Magical Beasts, thats probably too big of a jump for Vermin. Certainly nothing actually suggests that would be the case, since whats true for awakened Animals doesn't have to hold true for Vermin.

What I would have liked to have seen is a spell for awakening Vermin, and their listing for skill points per hit die also. I'm relatively confident other parts of Savage Species dealt with Vermin characters, so it seems somewhat odd to leave those parts out.