Savage Species is AWESOME...and this is why

[Gez]

That doesn't quite hold up under scrutiny. Constructs by definition, don't have intelligence scores either, having an Int of "-"

Nah. The definition of the Type for Vermin and Ooze says it has no Int score. The definition of the Type for Animal (and now, sadly Beast, I still object to that stupid decision) says Int score for them is 1 or 2.

There are no restriction on Int score for the Construct Type. And, actually, Bogun (MM2, 8), Capture Ones (MM2, same as base creature), Clockwork Horrors (MM2, Electrum 5, Gold 9, Platinum 13, Adamantine 17), Dread Guard (MM2, 6), Golems (Ruby Gemstone, Emeral Gemstone, Diamond Gemstone, MoF, 10, Stained Glass, MM2, 4, Brass, MM2, 3, Dragonflesh, MM2, 4), Half-Golems (MM2, base creature -6 or 1), Homonculii (10), Inevitables (MotP, Zelekhut 8, Kolyarut 10, Marut 12), Nimblewright (MM2, 10), Raggamoffyn (MM2, Tatterdemanimal, Common, Guttersnipe, Shrapnyl 10), Rogue Eidolon (MM2, 2), RTomb Tappers (MoF, 14), are all intelligent constructs from official WotC.

While I can see Animals becoming Magical Beasts, thats probably too big of a jump for Vermin. Certainly nothing actually suggests that would be the case, since whats true for awakened Animals doesn't have to hold true for Vermin.

Nah. There's precedent, Vermin familiars (like Hairy Spider from FRCS or Giant Fly and Wiggling Maggot from the Dead Life web article) become magical beasts like all familiars do.

 

[Knight Otu]

So if awakened vermin are magical beasts, what are intelligent oozes? Abberations, maybe?

Indeed they are. You might want to check the Dragon about Monster ... errr Mercenary characters.

 

[Psion]

Look at the example creature for the Emancipated Spawn prestige class. She has four levels of Sorcerer, all d4's.

If that is the case, then the book is flawed, since in the section on templates it is pretty explicit that the way Korimyr the Rat mentions is the way to do it.

 

[Alzrius]

If that is the case, then the book is flawed, since in the section on templates it is pretty explicit that the way Korimyr the Rat mentions is the way to do it.

The problem seems to be that that section is only about templates, all of which just seem to happen to be of the Undead type. Nowhere in the book does it actually say that all Undead use d12 for all hit dice. In fact, as near as I can tell, no WotC book says that anywhere.

While the Undead templates do seem to convert all hit dice to d12's, non-template Undead don't seem to follow that rule. Savage Species is just a long line in that tradition. Ergo, it can't be a mistake...an inconsistency maybe, but not just a singular error. Don't get me wrong, no one wants this to be cleared up more than I, but the way it is right now, looking at all the WotC books we can see that Undead fall into two distinct categories:

Undead by template - all hit dice become d12
Non-template Undead - d12 natural hit dice only, class hit dice remain unchanged

Here's hoping 3.5E fixes this once and for all.

And Gez, thanks for clearing all that up!

 

[nharwell]

I posted a question on the WOTC boards asking why guidelines for awakened animals and reincarnated characters weren't put in Savage Species. Rick Redman (one of the authors) responded thusly:

As explained in Chapter 2, Savage Species deals with monsters that meet certain qualifications (see Choosing a Base Creature, p9; and Difficult Monsters, pp22-23). Animals usually lack communication abilities, and most lack the ability to manipulate humanoid items. Savage Species and the PH both cover a number of ways such animals can become humanoid again (rituals, wish spells, and so forth).

I have to say that I disagree with his analysis, as both awakened and reincarnated animals can speak. I find the lack of discussion or rules for these characters particularly odd, since (in my experience) this is the "easiest" way for players to get non-standard characters.

 

[psychognome]

I so want this book! Why can't you come to Finland? WHY?!

 

[Psion]

The problem seems to be that that section is only about templates, all of which just seem to happen to be of the Undead type. Nowhere in the book does it actually say that all Undead use d12 for all hit dice. In fact, as near as I can tell, no WotC book says that anywhere.

You are right. It doesn't, and statistics elsewhere back this up.

BUT, this is an inconsistancy, especially after this book, since all templates but undead convert only base HD to a new type, where the undead template converts all HD, but non-template undead do not get that luxury. Which means that it is inconsistant. At least before SS clarified this, you could conclude that the behavior of all templates was the same.

 

[Thain]

But if recall correctly, she lost those Sorceress HD when she became a shadow, having taken the Emancipated Spawn PrC, she has regained all of her class abilities... including previously lost HD. The HD do not convert retroactively.

 

[jasamcarl]

Uh, why is this a flaw? It seems like a reasonable balance precaution, given that monsters with class levels are assigned CRs under the assumption that those class levels remain relativly consistent with those in the Player's Handbook. Changing dice to d12 would seem to be a major alteration, one which can be taken into account in a template CR adjustment, but not with a monster that may or may not have those levels added.

 

[Caliban]

But if recall correctly, she lost those Sorceress HD when she became a shadow, having taken the Emancipated Spawn PrC, she has regained all of her class abilities... including previously lost HD. The HD do not convert retroactively.

But they do convert retroactively when you apply a Lich template (from MM1) or every other "Undead" templete.

So a Ghoul that becomes a sorcerer has mixed HD (D4's and D12's), while a sorcerer that becomes a Lich or Vampire has all their HD converted to D12's.