Savage template to replace Barbarian class

[Felix]

How about rendering some skills untakeable by the Savage? That would provide a whittled down skill selection without forcing the Savage to spend half of his SP in a few skills.

Ideas for restricted skills:
Most Profession skills
Alchemy
Diplomacy
Most Knowledge skills
Decipher Script
Forgery
Open Locks
Use Magic Device

I don't have my book, so this is just from my head, but here's an idea of the skill list I would restrict from the Savage. The Rogues take the biggest hit, but a Savage Rogue would most likely be sneaker, more nature savvy (and less familiar with mechanical works) than his city counterpart.

The Knowledge skills that I would allow would be Know(nature), Know(local), Know(religion), Know(arcane). I'm sure the rich oral tradition of the savage tribe can privide information for those skills.

Profession skills that have to do with living in the wild [Profession (lumberjack)] would be ok. My only reservation is that having skills in Profession (x) means that you can make a certain amount of money with that skill; savage tribes usually have a backward system of currency, if any at all. I guess bartering would have to do.

How does that work fer ya?

 

[Jens]

Technik,

Thanks for writing out the feats. I will steal them almost by the letter ... By the way: Did you intend Uncanny Dodge to give both Dex and Flank? Your savage fighter takes them separately.

I don't think savage fighters should be required to take savage feats for their fighter feats, at least not all of them. Maybe at least half? I think the feats are sufficiently attractive for fighters to take.

Why should the rogue not receive bonus skill points because he already gets 8? Is 10 too many?

Negative modifiers to Charisma-based skills: I don't want to penalize Intimidate, and I have no particular problem with Use Magic Device either. As far as I know, there are no fixed negative modifiers to interactions between very different people.

Feat to remove spell limitation: I think it is overpowered, *any* savage spellcaster will take it. Actually, I don't think I mind savage spellcasters being weaker spellcasters than civilized ones. I could see letting druids and rangers take this feat, but then I'm also considering exempting them altogether.

Feat to give 'natural' class skills: I think the skills are too much a part of being savage to make it optional. Druids and Rangers won't take it just for Intimidate, and should they be without?


Felix: I have kind of restricted those skills already by reducing the maximum rank by 2. The reduction could be made more severe (reduce max ranks further (to half?), make ranks more costly, etc.), but I don't want to prohibit the skills entirely.

In general: Instead of giving extra skill points, I'm considering giving skill bonuses, something like a +2 at each level. It will make it possible to get higher modifiers but does not count towards PrCs. They are also easier to remove if/when becoming civilized.

 

[Technik4]

Well, those 2 restrictions (the rogues skill points and fighters forced to buy savage feats) were to reduce the power to ECL +0.

Consider the disadvantages to rogues?
-Not the armor
-Not the spells
-Illiteracy (can be negated with a few skill points)

So, you either impose that they must buy certain skills (a disadvantage I don't really favor) or, you penalize the reason it enhances their class, the bonus skills. You would know that any rogue who took the template did so in an effort to become a savage rogue, not to increase his skill repotoire.

Disadvantages to fighters?
-No heavy armor (easy to circumvent, be a dex fighter)
-Not the spells.
-Illiteracy (negatable)

So again, without a disadvantage, they are just more powerful without giving much up.

I wasn't really happy with the cha penalties, but I was trying to think of something to balance all the goodies your template gives. Perhaps limiting the characters' starting gold? Maybe just 2d4x10 for all savage templated characters? Even that wears off rather quickly, and shouldnt be weighed too heavily against the savage, especially if you don't start at level 1.

I like the idea, but I think it belongs as a +1 ECL unless you severely limit some of the raw power this template gives.

These comparisons:

Human Fighter 1
-3 feats.
-12+ Skill points.
-Very limited class skills.
-10hp.

Human S. Fighter 1
-3 feats, with savage feats as an option. No heavy armor.
-20+ Skill points.
-Increased class skill options, must spend class skills on ... any of their class skills.
-12hp.


Human Rogue 1
-2 feats.
-36+ Skill points.
-Large skill list.
-6hp.

Human S. Rogue 1
-2 feats, with savage feats as an option.
-44+ Skill points.
-Increased skill list, must concentrate skills on "woodsy" skills.
-8hp.

In both examples the savage characters may spend 2 of their extra 8 skill points to become literate. In both cases, they have more hp. In the savage fighter's case he is hardly restricted at all! Most of the skills he *must* spend his points on are already class skills. You limit his cross-class skill choices, something a straight fighter never has to worry about because of sheer lack of skill points.

Furthermore, the s. rogue can pick up +10 movement, whereas the regular rogue has to buy dash, only +5 movement. The s. rogue is limited in skill choices, especially in more civilized options, but all the essentials aren't hindered.

As far as the savage ranger and druid having to put cross-class points if they want intimidate...it doesn't seem to unreasonable to me. They can always take skill focus or cosmopolitan from FRCS if its offered. I think the savage feat to get skills is well-balanced, the classes who already have the skills don't need to get it, the ones who don't get a very good feat (what other feat offers 4 skills as class skills for 1 feat??). Maybe give all savages the intimidate skill as a class skill, but leave the rest out.

As far as the spell-casters, it isn't too much of an overbalanced feat. It negates a "weak" penalty, and adds a small bonus to their spells in a certain environment. It doesn't add to DCs or anything.

Just some opinions,

Technik

 

[Damn Gravity]

I love this idea! I am going to use it in a campaign I am making, along with an aristocrat template to compliment it. (If you have ideas for an aristocrat template please post.)

I had some thoughts and ideas on the discussion at hand.

An increase in hit die is big bonus. You really have to lay on the penalties to balance this out to a +0 ECL. How about just giving an extra die at first level? So a Savage Fighter would have 2d10 at 1st level.

A good restriction would be to make some skills permanent cross-class skills. Knowledge skills would be a good place to start.

A savage probably won’t be very good in civilized social situation. He would be OK haggling hunting rights with a neighboring tribe but not very articulate making a speech before the emperor or ruler of a civilized kingdom. So a penalty to certain social skills when used on nonsavages might be in order.


Savage Template

Alignment: Any nonlawful.

Benefits

Hardy: A savage is tempered by the hardships of living and surviving in the wilds. He gains an extra hit die at first level.

Extra class skills: The skills Intimidate, Intuit Direction, Listen, and Wilderness Lore are always considered class skills to a savage.

Savage Feats: A savage gains access to the savage feat list: Rage, Fast Movement, Uncanny Dodge, Damage Reduction, and Greater Rage. These feats may be taken as fighter bonus feats by a savage fighter.


Disadvantages

Illiteracy: Savages do not automatically know how to read and write. A savage must spend 2 skill points to gain the ability to read and write any language the savage is able to speak.

Armor proficiencies: A savage cannot gain heavy armor proficiency as a class benefit. He can only get it by taking it as a feat.

Permanent cross-class skills: If a savage gains any of these skills as a class skill they are considered cross-class skills. Decipher Script, Disguise, Forgery, Innuendo, Knowledge (all expect Nature), Profession (all non-physical labor), Use Magic Device.

Uncivilized: When dealing with any non-savage a savage has a -2 to the following skills: Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Perform, Sense Motive.

I think this is balanced. What do you guys think?

Mike

 

[Tonguez]

Savage Template

Alignment: Any nonlawful.

Benefits

Hardy: A savage is tempered by the hardships of living and surviving in the wilds. He gains an extra hit die at first level.

I think this Template is a great improvement on Jens original EXCEPT for the 2HD suggestion here.

Instead I go for a +2 bonus (eg Savage Fighter HD10+2, Savage Rogue HD6+2)

So
Savage Template

Alignment: Any nonlawful.

Benefits

Hardy: A savage is tempered by the hardships of living and surviving in the wilds. He gains +2 bonus to HD.

Extra class skills: The skills Intimidate, Intuit Direction, Listen, and Wilderness Lore are always considered class skills to a savage.

Savage Feats: A savage gains access to the savage feat list: Rage, Fast Movement, Uncanny Dodge, Damage Reduction, and Greater Rage. These feats may be taken as fighter bonus feats by a savage fighter.


Disadvantages

Illiteracy: Savages do not automatically know how to read and write. A savage must spend 2 skill points to gain the ability to read and write any language the savage is able to speak.

Armor proficiencies: A savage cannot gain heavy armor proficiency as a class benefit. He can only get it by taking it as a feat.

Permanent cross-class skills: If a savage gains any of these skills as a class skill they are considered cross-class skills. Decipher Script, Disguise, Forgery, Innuendo, Knowledge (all expect Nature), Profession (all non-physical labor), Use Magic Device.

Uncivilized: When dealing with any non-savage a savage has a -2 to the following skills: Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Perform, Sense Motive.

 

[Technik4]

My .02

Sorry, but I still don't see those disadvantages as balancing an ECL 0. The hit die thing is funky too. +2 hp/hit die is arguably more powerful than simply letting a higher die role. Its like a +4 to constitution!

I like the negatives for skills among non-savages.

Permanent cross-class I don't agree with. For instance, in Jens original model, you could eventually become civilized. The skills wouldn't be cross-class then would they?

As far as all knowledge but nature, that is just silly. Savages might have a better knowledge than civilized people about the lay of the land (geography), the spirit world (spirit), or even the arcane (arcane). Afterall, a savage wizard would have a lot of old spots in the earth to commune with, and would certainly have some arcane lore.

This is my take on ECL +0 Savage Template.



Savage

-Creating a Savage-

"Savage" is a template that can be added to any non-lawful corporeal humanoid (referred to hereafter as the "base humanoid"). It uses all the humanoid's statistics and special abilities except as noted here.

Weapon Proficiency: The base humanoid gains proficiency in the hand axe.
Armor Proficiency: If the base humanoid would gain heavy armor proficiency through a class bonus, it is not gained. It must be taken as a feat.
Language Proficiency: The base humanoid is illiterate. It can neither read nor write.
Hit Dice: Increased by one die type, to a maximum of d12.
Skills: Intimidate is always a class skill.
Feats: The following feats may be chosen as long as the other pre-requisites are met: Fast Movement, Barbaric Rage, Uncanny Dodge (Dex+Flank), Uncanny Dodge (Traps), Damage Reduction, Savage Skills.
Spell-casting Hindrance: All savage spell-casters subtract 1 from their "spells cast per day" chart. If this would reduce the spells to 0, the caster may only cast a spell if they have a bonus spell.

Sample Savage Humanoid

Savage Human Ranger 3
Hit Die: 3d12+3 (28)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 40 ft.
AC: 15
Attacks: +6 Mwk. Greataxe (or +6 Mwk. Handaxe)
Damage: 1d12+3 (or 1d6+2)
Saves: 4/3/2
Abilities: Str 14 Dex 15 Con 13 Int 10 Wis 12 Cha 8
Skills: Wilderness Lore +7, Spot +12, M. Silently +8, Hide +8, Intimidate +5.
Feats: Track, Two-Weapon Fighting, Ambidexterity, Fast Movement, Barbaric Rage, Uncanny Dodge. Favored Enemy- Beasts.
Equipment: Mwk. Studded Leather Armor, Mwk. Greataxe, Mwk. Handaxe, 3 potions of cure lt wounds, Eyes of the Eagle.

While Raging (lasts 6 rounds):
Hit Die: 3d12+9 (34)
AC: 13
Attacks: +8 Mwk. Greataxe (or +8 Mwk. Handaxe)
Damage: 1d12+6 (or 1d6+4)
Saves: 4/3/4


Thats about as far as I can stretch it and not cost it an ECL. Giving more skill points, or more class skills is, imo, too far. As you may or may not notice, this is essentially a brb2/rgr1. The important difference is that when this character hits level 5, he gets an increase in all his ranger abilities, including favored enemy and spell-casting. The multi-classer would be 2 levels behind, and depending on the humanoids favored class, might be pushing exp penalties.

Therefore, I don't think the template should give any more than what I have outlined above.

Technik.

 

[Jens]

Update

Below is my update. I have tried to note the main changes.

I have read many (imo) good ideas, and I have tried to listen. I am especially concerned about the template being too powerful. How about a -2 penalty to intelligence (little schooling, etc.) to balance it?

I have made it easier to remove the template by removing the extra skill points and increased HD (both replaced by equivalent bonuses). D5 (penalty when using technical devices) is there instead of various penalties to interaction. (Shouldn't a bluff/sense motive penalty for being foreign work both ways?)

New/modified: Pretty much everything except B4 and D1-D4. B1 (which is better? a or b?) and B3 are the main changes.


Savage Template

Benefits

B1a. Bonus hit points: A savage gains +1 hitpoint per hit die. OR

B1b. Hardiness: Savages get a +2 bonus to their constitution score.

B2. Extra class skills: The skills Intimidate, Intuit Direction, and Wilderness Lore are always considered class skills to a savage. [Removed Listen]

B3: Skill bonuses: At each level, a savage spending at least half his skill points among the skills Animal Empathy, Balance, Climb, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Intuit Direction, Jump, Listen, Ride, Swim, and Wilderness Lore, gets a +2 bonus to a chosen skill from the same list in which he has at least 3 ranks. The bonus may be assigned to the same skill more than once, but no more than once per 3 full ranks in the skill. [Replacing skill points with bonuses decreases the 1st level advantage and makes it easier to remove the benefit.]

B4. Savage Feats: Only savages can take and use the savage-exclusive feats Rage, Fast Movement, Uncanny Dodge, Damage Reduction, Greater Rage.

B5. Bonus weapon proficiency: Savages get a bonus proficiency in the handaxe.

Disadvantages

D1. Illiteracy: Savages do not automatically know how to read or write. A savage must pay 2 skill points to gain the ability to read and write any language he is able to speak.

D2. Limited skills: A savage’s maximum ranks with the skills Alchemy, Appraise, Craft (any technical), Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Forgery, Gather Information, Knowledge (all), Open Lock, Scry, Speak Language, Spellcraft, Use Magic Device are 2 lower than normal for his class and level. That means he cannot have cross-class ranks in these skills at first level.

D3. Armor proficiencies: A savage cannot gain heavy armor proficiency as a class benefit. That means he is only proficient with heavy armor if he has taken it as a feat.

D4. Spell limitation: A savage’s spellcasting ability is reduced by one daily spell of each level. If this results in “0” daily spells of a level, the savage can only cast spells of that level if he has a bonus spell of that level.

D5. Technology: A savage is unaccustomed to and will typically distrust technical devices such as crossbows and clockworks, and will only use them if absolutely necessary. He suffers a –2 penalty to any checks when using such devices.

Special Rules

R1. Savage fighters may spend fighter bonus feats on savage feats. In fact, they must spend at least half (round down) of their bonus feats on savage feats. (At least 1 by 2nd level, 2 by 6th level, 3 by 10th level, etc.) [To force savage fighters to be similar to barbarians. If they spend all their bonus feats on savage feats, they can get all the feats below and Extra Rage twice.]

R2. Savage druids may use axes, bows, and spears freely. [Wilder, less peaceful]

R3. Savages only receive half the normal starting wealth for their class. [Should this be even less?]

Becoming Civilized

C1. A savage who is literate may become civilized. When doing so, he immediately loses all advantages of being savage. He still suffers the disadvantages of being savage until he has been civilized for as long as he has been savage.

C2. A civilized savage can go back to being savage. To do so, he takes on the disadvantages immediately, but does not get the advantages until he has been savage longer than civilized.

Savage Feats

Fast Movement [Savage General, Savage Fighter Feat]
You are quick on your feet.
Prerequisite: Savage Template
Benefit: You gain +10’ speed in light or medium armor, as the barbarian ability.

Barbaric Rage [Savage General, Savage Fighter Feat]
You can use your anger as a weapon against your enemies.
Prerequisite: Savage Template, BAB +1
Benefit: You gain the ability to rage once per day as the barbarian ability.

Uncanny Dodge [Savage General, Savage Fighter Feat]
You react immediately to danger.
Prerequisite: Savage Template, BAB +2
Benefit: You do not lose your dex bonus, as the barbarian ability. If your BAB is at least +5, you also gain the ability not to be flanked, as the barbarian ability.

Uncanny Dodge (Traps) [Savage General, Savage Fighter Feat]
You can anticipate nasty surprises.
Prerequisite: Savage Template, BAB +10
Benefit: You get a +1 bonus to your saving throws vs. traps, as the barbarian ability. This ability improves by +1 for every 3 points of BAB above +10, to a maximum of +4.

Damage Reduction [Savage General, Savage Fighter Feat]
You can withstand the weakest of blows without injury.
Prerequisite: Savage Template, Barbaric Rage, BAB +12 or more
Benefit: You gain Damage Reduction 1 as the barbarian ability. This feat stacks with itself and may be taken more than once with the BAB requirement increasing by +2 each time.

Greater Rage [Savage General, Savage Fighter Feat]
Your raging fury is truly fearsome.
Prerequisite: Savage Template, Barbaric Rage, Extra Rage, BAB +15
Benefit: Your bonuses while raging increase to +6 Strength, +6 Constitution, and +3 morale bonus to Will Saves. The -2 AC penalty remains. If your total BAB is at least +20, you are also no longer winded after raging.

 

[Technik4]

I like it

-Benefits-
I would suggest to make B1c. Just make their hit die go up 1 level (max d12). This is essentially the same as giving them +1 hp/level, however this mechanic is used in many examples (half-dragon template, dragon disciple) whereas just giving extra hp is not. It is also weaker than a flat +2 constitution (which would bump raging, concentration checks, and fortitude saves!). Additionally, they dont lose hit points (hardiness) from previous classes for becoming civilized.

Other than that, I stll have issues with giving them bonuses to wilderness skills (B3). Do you really think their "savagery" makes them more adept than say a "civilzed" ranger. Both spent their skill points on natural skills, I just don't see the savage being inherently better. Maybe as a compromise give the savage template a bonus feat (albeit, one of the weakest) - Skill Focus with any skill on that list.

I don't think they need an int negative (it would be counter-productive, since it would give them less skills, yet you want them to have more skills).

-Disadvantages-
D2. I don't think savages would be less "knowledgable" on certain things (see previous post for examples). The rest more or less apply, spellcraft being iffy. On the other hand, it limits getting into a lot of prcs, which makes it a significant disadvantage. I guess I've finally come around on this one

D5. Perhaps make this more inclusive and specific. A savage gets this penalty when using the Open Locks or Disable Device skill, or when using any mechanical weapon, like a crossbow. Additionally, if a unique situation arises involving technology (gun powder, lasers, whatever) the savage gets this penalty. Personally, I think it should be a -4 (the penalty for using something you aren't proficient with), but I'm a hardass

-Special Rules-
R1. Perhaps an easier way of saying the same thing. The first bonus feat and every other bonus feat afterwards (1,4,8,12,16,20) must be spent on a savage fighter feat.

R3. I like it, nice and simple.

In conclusion, it all looks good to me, despite any minor gripes

Technik

 

[EarthsShadow]

I like it, it works. What other classes would make better templates than classes themselves? In a way, all of them could be templates in a way.

 

[Jens]

Re: I like it

Technik,

Hardiness: I'm actually favoring a flat Con +2 for pretty much the reasons you don't like it . It is simple, is lost if the template is dropped (the savage goes soft), helps concentration checks (can take a beating) and fortitude saves (seems appropriate to me). The only thing I don't really like is the exrea round of rage, but that's not too big a deal. Besides templates often modify ability scores.

For the same type of reasons, I like the idea of penalizing Int by -2 and making up for it with skill bonuses. The skills that use intelligence are very similar to those I want to penalize anyway (I do want to penalize knowledge, at least a little; without schooling/education, savages simply don't have access to as much of it) and it gives a lasting penalty to civilized savages since Int does not affect skill points retroactively. This will also be a significant penalty, almost balancing a +2 Con bonus according to the DMG.

Skill bonuses: I don't mind too much that a savage ranger can be a better tracker than a civilized ranger. But I would prefer a mechanic that gave a significant benefit without allowing as great numbers as what I have come up with above. There are only 11 skills on the list so giving a Skill Focus feat every level won't work , and besides I would like the benefit to end up greater than +2, at least on the most appropriate skills. I have considered something like the ranger's favored enemy bonus, but it doesn't seem to work well. Overall, I think what I got isn't too bad.

Knowledge skills: First, the -2 max ranks limitation is not a great problem. In effect, it delays access to some PrCs by 2 levels. Besides, I simply don't think savages should be fully as knowledgeable as civilizes folks since they don't have access to as much knowledge. They're simply backwards.

D5. Perhaps make this more inclusive and specific. A savage gets this penalty when using the Open Locks or Disable Device skill, or when using any mechanical weapon, like a crossbow. Additionally, if a unique situation arises involving technology (gun powder, lasers, whatever) the savage gets this penalty. Personally, I think it should be a -4 (the penalty for using something you aren't proficient with), but I'm a hardass

I think I agree with what you're saying, but how would you phrase it? I'm not having much luck. -4 is fine with me, by the way.

R1: Actually, What I wrote is less restrictive than requiring "the first and every other bonus feat afterwards" to be spent on a savage feat, and I'd prefer to keep that little bit of extra flexibility.