Save my Game: Do the Right Thing.

[catsclaw227]

You may want to check out the latest form Randy, and comment in the thread around here about it in the price of DDI and what is implied in there, so we no longer clog this thread about that...even though I think this is your thread and you can do what you want, but for the sake of others and the topic it was made for.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/245271-d-d-insider-16-a.html

Yep. I read the DDI article from Randy. I will peruse the related enworld thread and comment there, if necessary.

 

[MrMyth]

The problem I have with ALL these articles is that, from what I understand, these type of things were the free web enhancements on wizards.com.

And yet, you're wrong. Do you know where Dungeon Columns showed up before the online Dungeon magazine? In the print dungeon columns!

Ok, yes, there was free content on the website. Generally a web enhancement for each product, and a few recurring features here and there. I certainly don't recall them being anywhere near the 200 pages of content each month we're seeing in Dragon and Dungeon.

You know what we are getting now, for free, that we weren't getting before? Almost constant previews of upcoming products. Oh, there were previews before... once a month. Those are still around too - but we also get a wide variety of specific previews of each product in the month leading up to release. Clearly, they aren't making the website closed to everyone except the subscribers.

Now, this article serves to help new players it seems from what you and others say, as well as older ones, that just might not yet know.

But for those who are not subscribed a new player may get the wrong idea from the blurb about what is being said, and then either takes away the wrong thing for not being a subscriber, or must shell out money to get something that should have been free advice to help all gamers, not things just for a subscriber.

That's a lot of concern for some very hypothetical gamers - you know, the ones who are DMing a game, but don't have a DMG (where this same advice can be found), and who are prowling the WotC website, and who have decided the best way to learn how to run the game is to read a description of an article, make up their own ideas about what the article must be about, and then run the game according to those mistaken ideas.

Or, more likely, not a single player in existence will be in any way influenced by the random blurb for the article. Except, of course, for those who might see it as some sort of new weapon in their crusade to attack anything remotely connected to 4E and WotC, regardless of whether they have to through common sense out the window in order to do so.

Seriously - all he is doing is given the same advice found in the DMG. If a player isn't DMing, they certainly don't need this advice. If a player is a DM, they should get a DMG. So why, precisely, do you feel his advice should be given away for free?

It's a nonsense argument, and you know it.

I still have not read the article, because I will not subscribe. I can write my own program of use one of the many online to help make a character and adjust my numbers for me, and currently only need the PHB.

So it is what the articles has a goal to do, and then how it does it that I find a problem with.

Look. You can't state that you have not read the article, and then start making claims about it has failed at its goals and used the wrong methods. You don't know what the goals are, nor have you been witness to the methods!

You want to know what the goal of the article is? To provide useful and entertaining information for the subscribers of the magazine.

You want to know how it went about doing so? By providing personal anecdotes to share advice about the hobby.

And from what we can tell - he succeeded! As you can see from the people in this thread who actually read the article and who are the target audience for the article, they actually liked it! Maybe not every subscriber, but people seem to feel it is a good message and he did a good job telling it.

If you are going to help player, then do so. I would hope things like this were not only columns in the Dungeon magazine in the past. (Again or those who may have missed it I own one old Dungeon mag, and read others only during the free DDI period.)

So if the article is intended to help everyone then it shouldn't be something that forces someone to subscribe to help them run/play the game.

That isn't what insider content should be.

What should it be? Seriously - his column is a collection of gaming advice, the same sort of material that has always been present in the Dragon and Dungeon magazines. Are you seriously saying they shouldn't share such information?

Dude, do you even understand the concept of a hobby magazine? Think about cooking magazines, carpentry magazines, anything else along those lines - the vast majority of the content is advice! Do you really think they should be just giving those things away for free out of some obscure sense of fan entitlement?

You could make the same argument for all the content: the article on Gladiators was really popular, thus improves one's game - thus, it should be given away for free!

No. That's nonsense. There is nothing in his article required to play the game. No one is being forced to subscribe because of it. It is there, like the rest of insider content, as useful information for subscribers. That's the entire idea behind Dragon and Dungeon, and trying to claim that is somehow wrong or immoral is just about as ridiculous as you can get.

So it isn't being threatened by what is said, rather than how what is said is delivered to the gaming public that offends some.

Who is being offended, precisely? Who are this mythical gamers you are championing whose games are ruined because they aren't given D&DI content for free?

Well also what the blurb says about the article pretty much summarizes what it seems to say anyway, and that may make people question WotC and its ability to make books if they are to have something worded to imply to just throw the rules out because you don't need them anyway!

I'd say the odds of someone misunderstanding the article are a lot less than the odds of someone misunderstanding your failure of a sentence there.

Hey, let's take a quote from last month's "Save the Game" preview blurb:

"Our examination of player management concludes with a look at a difficult topic -- psychology. Managing diverse personalities around a table can be tough, but when done properly, it strengthens the group."

Clearly, any gamer who stumbles upon this will be disheartened, since they are being told the rules are useless without a degree in psychology.

Let's look at some other preview quotes! Here's a line from one of the gladiator articles: "This article explores the gladiatorial match from behind the screen, giving you everything you need to send your player characters into the arena to claim the prize of victory."

So, do you think a DM will see this, see how this article has "everything you need" to run some gladiatorial combat, and decide that since he isn't a subscriber, he is simply not allowed to run an arena fight? That he is forced to subscribe to do so, and can't come up with his own rules for his own personal campaign?

No, of course not. These are absurd interpretations of the quotes, and no one is actually going to think this sort of thing. Your hypothetical problem doesn't exist, save as another way for you to rant about the evils of WotC and 4E.

You don't like the game? That's not a problem. But scouring every single possible piece of information about it to find as many possible minute details you can criticize and complain about? That's not healthy, and it certainly isn't useful for anyone on these message boards.

The idea of your are only worth helping/supporting if you are buying the latest product, is just plain offensive.

So, just to confirm your opinion: You are stating that you believe that every and all piece of D&D product should be given away for free, correct? Since all gamers should be supported, even if they can't afford to buy a single product?

Why in the world is it offensive to you that subscribers for a magazine are given useful columns as part of that subscription?

Look, I'll start at the basics: Money can be exchanged for goods and services! Goods and services are not, routinely, given away for free.

Now, WotC does provide quite a bit of free content on their website, and I'm quite glad to see it. It shows an appreciation for the player base, and provide a hub for the online community, one way or another. But they aren't required to do so, and they certainly aren't immoral for also having content that customers pay for.

Someone who buys a Monster Manual has a Monster Manual. The contents of their PHB aren't devalued because I bought Adventurer's Vault, or have an online subscription to Dragon Magazine. That isn't how it works. They still have their content, and can still use it just as much as before.

And someone who is given free content online is certainly not being insulted simply because I am allowed to pay for online content in Dungeon Magazine.

 

[Treebore]

Somewhere between 6-8th grade, everyone learns to write a keyhole essay. Keyhole essays, by and large, are not all that good. They also, by and large, are not that bad. So why do we teach them? Because learning how to write an ok essay is a step toward learning how to write a good essay. Similarly, running a game by RAW is not the formula to a great game, but it also helps avoid a bad one. DMs need to learn to play by the rules so that they can learn how to break the rules correctly.

Yes! The bolded part sums it up perfectly.

 

[Scribble]

Yes! The bolded part sums it up perfectly.

Yeah I saw a lot of that in film school... People would say "screw that man, I don't need to learn the "rules" of film making... I make my own rules and don't follow the Hollywood rules man..."

So they'd slap together some crappy "new masterpiece" without any thought about how what their doing effects the audience.

Changing rules is great, provided you understand what that change will do.

If you make a change because you know it will make you audience (players) more happy awesome... if you make a change just because... Lame...

 

[catsclaw227]

You know what we are getting now, for free, that we weren't getting before? Almost constant previews of upcoming products. Oh, there were previews before... once a month. Those are still around too - but we also get a wide variety of specific previews of each product in the month leading up to release. Clearly, they aren't making the website closed to everyone except the subscribers.

And the Vicious Venues article today was free, wasn't it? Nice. Eberron fluff, a bit of crunch, and nary a subscription requirement in sight.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I read the article, but I wish I hadn't. If I had not read it, I could complain and say it is a failure and will turn people into bad DMs. Unfortunately I have read it, and agree with everything said.

Another opportunity for negativity escaped my grasps!

 

[roguerouge]

This is an amusingly Orwellian article from the people who brought you the Rules Compendium, which was essentially charging for exactly this kind of up-to-the-minute rules precision.

"We have never been at war with Eastasia..."

 

[firesnakearies]

And yet, you're wrong. Do you know where Dungeon Columns showed up before the online Dungeon magazine? In the print dungeon columns!

Ok, yes, there was free content on the website. Generally a web enhancement for each product, and a few recurring features here and there. I certainly don't recall them being anywhere near the 200 pages of content each month we're seeing in Dragon and Dungeon.

You know what we are getting now, for free, that we weren't getting before? Almost constant previews of upcoming products. Oh, there were previews before... once a month. Those are still around too - but we also get a wide variety of specific previews of each product in the month leading up to release. Clearly, they aren't making the website closed to everyone except the subscribers.



That's a lot of concern for some very hypothetical gamers - you know, the ones who are DMing a game, but don't have a DMG (where this same advice can be found), and who are prowling the WotC website, and who have decided the best way to learn how to run the game is to read a description of an article, make up their own ideas about what the article must be about, and then run the game according to those mistaken ideas.

Or, more likely, not a single player in existence will be in any way influenced by the random blurb for the article. Except, of course, for those who might see it as some sort of new weapon in their crusade to attack anything remotely connected to 4E and WotC, regardless of whether they have to through common sense out the window in order to do so.

Seriously - all he is doing is given the same advice found in the DMG. If a player isn't DMing, they certainly don't need this advice. If a player is a DM, they should get a DMG. So why, precisely, do you feel his advice should be given away for free?

It's a nonsense argument, and you know it.



Look. You can't state that you have not read the article, and then start making claims about it has failed at its goals and used the wrong methods. You don't know what the goals are, nor have you been witness to the methods!

You want to know what the goal of the article is? To provide useful and entertaining information for the subscribers of the magazine.

You want to know how it went about doing so? By providing personal anecdotes to share advice about the hobby.

And from what we can tell - he succeeded! As you can see from the people in this thread who actually read the article and who are the target audience for the article, they actually liked it! Maybe not every subscriber, but people seem to feel it is a good message and he did a good job telling it.



What should it be? Seriously - his column is a collection of gaming advice, the same sort of material that has always been present in the Dragon and Dungeon magazines. Are you seriously saying they shouldn't share such information?

Dude, do you even understand the concept of a hobby magazine? Think about cooking magazines, carpentry magazines, anything else along those lines - the vast majority of the content is advice! Do you really think they should be just giving those things away for free out of some obscure sense of fan entitlement?

You could make the same argument for all the content: the article on Gladiators was really popular, thus improves one's game - thus, it should be given away for free!

No. That's nonsense. There is nothing in his article required to play the game. No one is being forced to subscribe because of it. It is there, like the rest of insider content, as useful information for subscribers. That's the entire idea behind Dragon and Dungeon, and trying to claim that is somehow wrong or immoral is just about as ridiculous as you can get.



Who is being offended, precisely? Who are this mythical gamers you are championing whose games are ruined because they aren't given D&DI content for free?



I'd say the odds of someone misunderstanding the article are a lot less than the odds of someone misunderstanding your failure of a sentence there.

Hey, let's take a quote from last month's "Save the Game" preview blurb:

"Our examination of player management concludes with a look at a difficult topic -- psychology. Managing diverse personalities around a table can be tough, but when done properly, it strengthens the group."

Clearly, any gamer who stumbles upon this will be disheartened, since they are being told the rules are useless without a degree in psychology.

Let's look at some other preview quotes! Here's a line from one of the gladiator articles: "This article explores the gladiatorial match from behind the screen, giving you everything you need to send your player characters into the arena to claim the prize of victory."

So, do you think a DM will see this, see how this article has "everything you need" to run some gladiatorial combat, and decide that since he isn't a subscriber, he is simply not allowed to run an arena fight? That he is forced to subscribe to do so, and can't come up with his own rules for his own personal campaign?

No, of course not. These are absurd interpretations of the quotes, and no one is actually going to think this sort of thing. Your hypothetical problem doesn't exist, save as another way for you to rant about the evils of WotC and 4E.

You don't like the game? That's not a problem. But scouring every single possible piece of information about it to find as many possible minute details you can criticize and complain about? That's not healthy, and it certainly isn't useful for anyone on these message boards.



So, just to confirm your opinion: You are stating that you believe that every and all piece of D&D product should be given away for free, correct? Since all gamers should be supported, even if they can't afford to buy a single product?

Why in the world is it offensive to you that subscribers for a magazine are given useful columns as part of that subscription?

Look, I'll start at the basics: Money can be exchanged for goods and services! Goods and services are not, routinely, given away for free.

Now, WotC does provide quite a bit of free content on their website, and I'm quite glad to see it. It shows an appreciation for the player base, and provide a hub for the online community, one way or another. But they aren't required to do so, and they certainly aren't immoral for also having content that customers pay for.

Someone who buys a Monster Manual has a Monster Manual. The contents of their PHB aren't devalued because I bought Adventurer's Vault, or have an online subscription to Dragon Magazine. That isn't how it works. They still have their content, and can still use it just as much as before.

And someone who is given free content online is certainly not being insulted simply because I am allowed to pay for online content in Dungeon Magazine.

This post was pure gold. I got much laughter from this. And of course, you're completely right about everything.

Nonsense being smashed is sweet music.

 

[Halivar]

This is an amusingly Orwellian article from the people who brought you the Rules Compendium

Actually, it isn't the same people.

 

[Obryn]

I must spread around XP before giving it to MrMyth again.

-O