Save My Game - Goes off like a bomb!

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I don't want to open this can of worms, but I will say that I'm highly skeptical of this claim. The human imagination is pretty much limitless

Yeah, and in practice, that limitless imagination shows up in extremely few tabletop games. Just reading what people say about their games at ENWorld drives that point home rather firmly.

 

[Wrathamon]

My main problem with these articles is the tone of the wotc writer....

He tends to belittle the person asking the question and then gives a solution.

Why would I want to listen to a a$$hat? Seriously, they are trying to get more players to play the game and then have some clown rip into you?

and no I have never had a question of mine answer by them

Seriously thou does no one else think these Save My Game articles are rude?

 

[theredrobedwizard]

I imagine these are the same types of DMs who completely require the players to roleplay every and all interactions with NPCs; without so much as ever asking for Bluff/Diplomacy.

I am playing a superhumanly charismatic Half-Elf Bard who has oodles of training as well as several magic items to pump up his Diplomacy and Bluff skills. I am a skinny nerd who *maybe* has a 13 Charisma and one or two ranks in Bluff. I am not going to be able to come up with something as eloquent as my Half-Elf alter ego; his Diplomacy modifier is +43. Mine is maybe +2.

Yet I never see people asked to demonstrate how they're swinging their sword, what magical gestures they're using to cast Magic Missile, etc.

I understand that it's a roleplaying game, but I shouldn't be expected to try and come up with something the equivalent of someone who could sway his worst enemies into being his friends inside a minute.

Same goes with the puzzle situation. I might be playing a Wizard with a 22 Intelligence, but I'm not that smart. Just because I, the player, am bad at all puzzles and riddles, doesn't mean my hyperintelligent Wizard isn't. Why can't I roll some kind of Intelligence check to try and overcome the puzzle?

Next time I DM, if someone tries to make a Strength check, I'm going to have them lift something of nearly equivalent weight in real life. Then, when they can't, I'll tell them that their character can't. When they complain, I'll just bring up riddles/diplomacy and tell them to take it like a man. Of course, this will last one session, but maybe they'll learn their lesson.

Sorry for the rant, but I agree with everything the article's author stated.

-TRRW

 

[Kestrel]

Yeah, and in practice, that limitless imagination shows up in extremely few tabletop games. Just reading what people say about their games at ENWorld drives that point home rather firmly.

While I agree with this, videogames still have not grasped the ability to react to players like a GM can.

Even in WoW, which I consider to be pretty complex, its still a coded response to players actions, that can be quantified and then written into guides. (DO this to fight this boss. The boss reacts this way when you do this, etc) The videogame will ALWAYS respond in the same manner, and thus become trite and repeatable. WoW is still enjoyable, but it definitely has limits. To me, this is why PnP games will always be fun, you never know what the GM (or the module he's reading from) will do.

(Upon re-reading, I think Im straying from the point of the thread)

 

[Doug McCrae]

"Like a video game" equates to "limited" in my mind. It doesn't have anything to do with simple or simple-mindedness. You are limited in your actions/strategies/tactics to those actions/strategies/tactics that the processor has been programmed to process. Some video games are more robust than others, but the point remains that RPGs with a live DM theoretically offer infinite options and there's no computer or console game that can achieve the same thing (yet?).

Non-crpging is, in some respects, a lot more limited. You're limited by what the other players want to do. If you want to do shady deals with the thieves guild and the other players all want to go dragon slaying then how free are you? You're limited by what the GM has prepared. You're limited by the GM's tastes.

Compare that to my favourite style of crpg. Games like Morrowind, Oblivion and World of Warcraft. You have a choice of dozens if not hundreds of quests. You can roam freely, make money, learn magic, be good, evil, lawful, chaotic, whatever you want.

 

[pawsplay]

Ah, the perils of zorking.

 

[BryonD]

Yeah, and in practice, that limitless imagination shows up in extremely few tabletop games. Just reading what people say about their games at ENWorld drives that point home rather firmly.

People play D&D a lot of different ways. And often your point is exactly right.

But the reality that many others can and do have their imaginations show up frequently, in practice, is a big value for tabletop.

 

[Festivus]

Wasn't that a solve the puzzle or the sphinx attacks situation and not a solve the puzzle or the game grinds to a halt situation?

I only remember the first riddle off the top of my head about the night pearl, but I don't think it required any anachronisms or out of character knowledge to solve, it seemed the type of riddle a D&D sphinx would have that a D&D character could solve completely in character.

Unless you mean it relies upon the player figuring it out instead of the character stats affecting a die roll to deal with the problem.

Perhaps a poor example on my part, but I was saying the latter, that the players were the ones solving the problem and not the characters (via Int or Wis for example). The barbarian comes up with the answer to a math puzzle... just doesn't seem right to me.

 

[molonel]

I would argue that there are still plenty of console and PC games that require the "A then B then C then D" type of play where you have to jump a chasm, open a door, fight a monster, find a key, fight another monster, use the key, etc. all in that order as a requirement of the game. There's nothing wrong with that. I like those kind of games (Ratchet & Clank is one of my all-time favorites), but D&D is a different beast and if you play D&D like Ratchet & Clank or Super Mario Brothers or whatever, then you are being self-limiting, which is the point I was making above.

But that's like comparing D&D to Pong. It's humorous, but it's neither timely nor accurate as a broad statement, anymore.

"Like a video game" equates to "limited" in my mind. It doesn't have anything to do with simple or simple-mindedness. You are limited in your actions/strategies/tactics to those actions/strategies/tactics that the processor has been programmed to process. Some video games are more robust than others, but the point remains that RPGs with a live DM theoretically offer infinite options and there's no computer or console game that can achieve the same thing (yet?). I think I have an adequately firm grasp of both the nature of video games and RPGs as well as extensive experience with players who get trapped in the habit of treating the latter like the former. The phrase "trapped in a video game mentality" isn't intended as an insult, it's merely diagnostic. Knowing the root of a player's dissatisfaction with the gaming experience is the first step in overcoming it and often it involves being told explicitly something that the player already thought he knew (but was in the habit of ignoring); i.e. the game is not being run by a computer, but by a person, so stop trying to guess what I'll "let you do" and start thinking about what you "want to do".

As the first post in this thread demonstrated, though, tabletop RPGs can turn into "limited" activities. And video games no longer simply follow the A then B then C then D formula.

It would be nice if all tabletop RPGs posssessed an infinite range of options, but in most cases, that simply isn't true. It can adapt and mold, sure. If a good GM is in charge.

But see, good game designers exist in the video game world, too. I've seen some incredible work on the mods for NWN, and custom maps and adventures even for first person shooters.

You're giving short shrift to video game designers who can be every bit as creative and original as RPG designers.

One actual example I've seen in a tabletop situation with a "video game mentality" was a group of people who played WoW, and came to a live tabletop RPG. Most of them had never played D&D.

They often required a quest giver, or someone to explain to them what was going on, the narrative behind things and what they needed to do.

The DM recognized this, and gave someone like that for many of their early quests: a figure like Gandalf or Elrond, or the druid Allanon in the The Elfstones of Shannara. A mentor figure.

That's an example of a true situation where a DM friend of mine faced a "video game mentality." And it wasn't that hard to overcome.

And it was more a habit of how they were accustomed to experiencing narrative in a fantasy setting than simply being "limited" in their thinking or creativity.

I don't want to open this can of worms, but I will say that I'm highly skeptical of this claim. The human imagination is pretty much limitless; I can introduce all sorts of random elements and plot twists on the fly that simply aren't possible for a programming team to have anticipated and added in advance. How do I know this? Because the programming team isn't sitting there adjusting things in real time, and doesn't have the technical capability to add an infinite variety of investments. If that were the case, things might be different. Not to say that video games aren't achieving significant complexity, but to my mind, there's a fundamental difference. It just isn't about punishing PCs for pushing random buttons in dungeons!

What you seem to be forgetting, is that the human imagination is also responsible for video games.

Programming teams for WoW are cranking out new adventures all the time that make a lot of 1st Edition AD&D modules look silly, by comparison. Are all of them grand Shakespearean tragedies? Of course not. Neither are most D&D games, and thank God for that!

There are, in fact, people adjusting things in some MMORPGs in real time. These are games that are running 24/7/365.

There are significant, tangible benefits and perks that a face-to-face game can offer that most video games do not.

But being creative is not one of those advantages.

 

[ruleslawyer]

What you seem to be forgetting, is that the human imagination is also responsible for video games.

Programming teams for WoW are cranking out new adventures all the time that make a lot of 1st Edition AD&D modules look silly, by comparison. Are all of them grand Shakespearean tragedies? Of course not. Neither are most D&D games, and thank God for that!

There are, in fact, people adjusting things in some MMORPGs in real time. These are games that are running 24/7/365.

There are significant, tangible benefits and perks that a face-to-face game can offer that most video games do not.

But being creative is not one of those advantages.

Perhaps I failed to state my point clearly. I'm not talking about scenario design, although I would argue that Ed Greenwood's vision of the Forgotten Realms far exceeds the narrative vision for Azeroth. [In that sense, it doesn't matter, since they use different media (the written word vs. images); I'd certainly say the graphics people for WoW, let alone something like Shadow of the Colossus, have it in spades over most fantasy artists.] I'm perfectly happy to agree that there are scenarios ("published modules") for all kinds of CRPGs that are marvels of plot and narrative design.

However, that's not what I was talking about. I'm talking about adaptation to individual games and players moment by moment. I'm fully aware that there are people making real-time adjustments in some MMORPGs, but what I'm talking about is winging entire scenarios, tactics, behavior of existing and new NPCs, and spontaneous events on the fly. The nature of the medium dictates that CRPGs cannot do that. Creative and narrative flexibility is something that's possible in tabletop because there's active, instantaneous communication between DM and players. I'm sure there are less imaginative DMs out there who don't make the best use of their creative faculties and the flexibility of the medium, but by the same token, there are tons of ugly-ass videogames out there.