Save My Game - Goes off like a bomb!

[Ourph]

Video games are not just "different" from tabletop RPGs. In some aspects, they are superior, and offer more accessibility to more people. I know that's going to draw gasps of shock and horror from folks here. But I don't play video games. I prefer tabletop RPGs. I recognize, though, there mine is a niche hobby. It's competing against other activities that are just as creative, just as imaginative and offer a level of mechanical complexity sometimes that only games like GURPS can hope to match.

I really don't have an opinion as to which is "superior". That's a subjective judgement that I'm not interested in making. I like both. No gasp of shock and horror here.

The comparisons I see between RPGs and video games on this forum have always been negative, and your post was no exception. I didn't read insult in your post, nor am I insulted, personally. So you don't need to take responsibility for anything that I didn't claim.

I'm surprised that you find my initial comparison negative, since I wasn't pointing out a fault with video games but with players who forget that D&D isn't a video game. Is pointing out that D&D isn't a video game a negative comparison?

 

[molonel]

I'm surprised that you find my initial comparison negative, since I wasn't pointing out a fault with video games but with players who forget that D&D isn't a video game. Is pointing out that D&D isn't a video game a negative comparison?

Your comparison, first of all, was not accurate. And that is where I commented, prior to any statements about quality or lack of it. A lot of the video games that people are playing that compare to RPGs allow for multiple solutions, and the linear A to B to C to D to E progression simply doesn't apply.

If you're comparing good RPGs to bad video games, then the comparison becomes even more flawed. If you want a real measurement of how they stack up against each other, you compare the best of both. Otherwise, go back to building straw men because that's all you're doing.

 

[helium3]

Yeah, and in practice, that limitless imagination shows up in extremely few tabletop games. Just reading what people say about their games at ENWorld drives that point home rather firmly.

Hahhahah!! You're my hero!!

 

[IcyCool]

If you're comparing good RPGs to bad video games, then the comparison becomes even more flawed. If you want a real measurement of how they stack up against each other, you compare the best of both. Otherwise, go back to building straw men because that's all you're doing.

A video game, by it's very nature is limited. That is a fact. It's also not a bad thing. And it doesn't mean that a video game can't be creative, entertaining, or thought-provoking. But I guarantee you, that if you took any situation in CRPG and changed it to a table top session, your available options are more limited in the CRPG than on the table top.

 

[molonel]

A video game, by it's very nature is limited. That is a fact. It's also not a bad thing. And it doesn't mean that a video game can't be creative, entertaining, or thought-provoking. But I guarantee you, that if you took any situation in CRPG and changed it to a table top session, your available options are more limited in the CRPG than on the table top.

This is exactly why I said that people who make these comparisons need to actually play the video games they are comparing their hobbies to.

If that was a monetary bet, I'd take it gladly.

And then I'd slip your money into my wallet, afterward.

 

[pawsplay]

I would say the number of tactical variations offered by a CRPG is staggeringly larger than a human GM. A battle against a group of forty creatures of eight different types is a snap for City of Heroes, more difficult and less fluent for a human GM running M&M or Hero.

 

[Ourph]

Your comparison, first of all, was not accurate. And that is where I commented, prior to any statements about quality or lack of it. A lot of the video games that people are playing that compare to RPGs allow for multiple solutions, and the linear A to B to C to D to E progression simply doesn't apply.

Fine, I buy that. Are you saying that the linear A to B to C to D to E videogames don't exist or that people don't play them? There are a lot of sales figures and video game awards out there that are waiting to contradict you if you are.

If you're comparing good RPGs to bad video games, then the comparison becomes even more flawed. If you want a real measurement of how they stack up against each other, you compare the best of both. Otherwise, go back to building straw men because that's all you're doing.

I'm comparing two award winning video games (Ratchet & Clank and Super Mario Brothers) to D&D and saying that in Ratchet & Clank (for example) if there's a door in front of you it means 1) you probably have to go through that door at some point for the game to advance; and 2) there is almost assuredly only one way to open that door.

I'm also saying 3) that, while Ratchet & Clank is a GREAT game (and I honestly mean that) if you, as a player, approach D&D expecting doors to mean the same things they do in Ratchet & Clank your D&D experience may not be all that it could be.

Please tell me where, in the above, I'm making a negative comparison, saying something inaccurate or failing to make sense.

 

[IcyCool]

This is exactly why I said that people who make these comparisons need to actually play the video games they are comparing their hobbies to.

If that was a monetary bet, I'd take it gladly.

And then I'd slip your money into my wallet, afterward.

I grew up on video games, and they are still the main staple of my gaming diet. So can we dispense with your "you need to actually play the video games of today" comment?

Give me a situation in a game you have played, where you had at least as much freedom to do anything as you would at the table top (and I will propose an action that you could do on the table top, no matter how foolish or detrimental, that would prove you wrong).

In fact, you don't even have to give me a situation. Let's take dialogue as a simple example. How about this, in Oblivion, could you ask an NPC what they had for breakfast yesterday? Could you ask this question of all the characters you met? If your answer is no, why is that not more limited than a table top session where you could do exactly that?

Edit - Actually, judging by how blindingly easy it is to prove my point, I'm guessing that we are having a miscommunication here. Let me ask you this in a different way:

1. Do you believe there is a video game out there that provides you with the freedom to do or attempt anything you want?

2. If the answer to #1 is false, then how is the statement, "CRPGs are more limited than table top RPGS by definition" false?

Edit 2 - Sorry Hussar, I'm contributing to the derailment of your thread, and I haven't even addressed you OP! I think that the article was rude, and made a number of negative assumptions about the GM. While it is true that puzzles are a hit or miss subject (check with your players before including them!), the article seemed to be less about giving useful advice and more about judging and heaping abuse.

 

[molonel]

Fine, I buy that. Are you saying that the linear A to B to C to D to E videogames don't exist or that people don't play them? There are a lot of sales figures and video game awards out there that are waiting to contradict you if you are. I'm comparing two award winning video games (Ratchet & Clank and Super Mario Brothers) to D&D and saying that in Ratchet & Clank (for example) if there's a door in front of you it means 1) you probably have to go through that door at some point for the game to advance; and 2) there is almost assuredly only one way to open that door. I'm also saying 3) that, while Ratchet & Clank is a GREAT game (and I honestly mean that) if you, as a player, approach D&D expecting doors to mean the same things they do in Ratchet & Clank your D&D experience may not be all that it could be. Please tell me where, in the above, I'm making a negative comparison, saying something inaccurate or failing to make sense.

You are comparing D&D to Super Mario Brothers, a game released in 1985, and using the latter as a representative sample of contemporary video games and you can't possibly understand how I see that as negative or inaccurate?

Are you serious?

I grew up on video games, and they are still the main staple of my gaming diet. So can we dispense with your "you need to actually play the video games of today" comment?

I'll dispense with it when you actually demonstrate some sort of fluency or knowledge on the subject, instead of merely claiming you possess it while making statements that seem to contradict your claim.

Until then, my statement stands.

Give me a situation in a game you have played, where you had at least as much freedom to do anything as you would at the table top (and I will propose an action that you could do on the table top, no matter how foolish or detrimental, that would prove you wrong).

I'll give you more than one example, although it will be from situations I've observed since I've stated quite clearly that I prefer tabletop RPGs to video games.

I've watched friends of mine lead raids of 20 or 30 people with a level of tactical complexity that rivals the small squad tactics used by Navy SEALs. In fact, they had MORE freedom of tactics and choices than ANYTHING I've ever done in all but the most well-prepared epic one-shot.

I've always watched friends of mine wander literally for DAYS around a rich, diversified city environment or explore ancient tombs or wild country.

And you know what? They didn't have to quit when the DM got tired. They kept playing until they WANTED to quit, or until they were too bleary-eyed to proceed.

That is a choice. And it is just as important of a gaming choice as bantering with the inn keeper.

In fact, you don't even have to give me a situation. Let's take dialogue as a simple example. How about this, in Oblivion, could you ask an NPC what they had for breakfast yesterday? Could you ask this question of all the characters you met? If your answer is no, why is that not more limited than a table top session where you could do exactly that?

For reasons that I've already talked about.

And let's be clear. You said "you took ANY situation in CRPG and changed it to a table top session, your available options are more limited in the CRPG than on the table top." Emphasis mine.

That is quite simply demonstratably false.

Edit - Actually, judging by how blindingly easy it is to prove my point, I'm guessing that we are having a miscommunication here. Let me ask you this in a different way:

1. Do you believe there is a video game out there that provides you with the freedom to do or attempt anything you want?

2. If the answer to #1 is false, then how is the statement, "CRPGs are more limited than table top RPGS by definition" false?

It's only blindingly easy to prove your point because you are a very generous and accepting audience for your own arguments.

I'm saying that there are now video games out there, in the form of MMORPGs, that in fact offer you a GREATER amount of diversity of choices than many tabletop RPGs.

 

[IcyCool]

I'll dispense with it when you actually demonstrate some sort of fluency or knowledge on the subject, instead of merely claiming you possess it while making statements that seem to contradict your claim.

Until then, my statement stands.

Either I'm not explaining myself clearly, or you know exactly what I'm talking about. Since I have far better things I could do with my Friday, I'm hoping it's the former.

I'm saying that there are now video games out there, in the form of MMORPGs, that in fact offer you a GREATER amount of diversity of choices than many tabletop RPGs.

And that is a provably false claim. I'll go with another example and hope that my point comes across with it.

Let's say I'm playing Grand Theft Auto 3. My choices of what I can do in that game are vast, but not unlimited. If I were playing a similar themed campaign in a table top RPG, I could stop and buy a cappuchino, pick up a lottery ticket, go to my 9-5, buy a newspaper, etc. Pretty much all things I can't do in the video game. Sure, they have no game effect, but they are options available to me on the table top that aren't available to me in the game.

Does that make my point more clear?