Save or die spells/effects

[Darklone]

Reading one of the bodak threads in the last days, I remembered a houserule someone proposed years ago... realising that I forgot my biggest problem with the system when I started D&D long ago: Save or die effects.

Honestly, nowadays I'm not against high level save or die spells like disintegrate. Slay Living might be a little bit too low... let's just say: Level 6 spells or higher and I don't mind.

But the low level spells used to be a bit hard. I love Sleep and Color Spray and others... but they are either ridiculously powerful or useless. Guess why Sleep has been nerfed.

Now finally my question:
Do you believe 4th edition will e.g. have some sort of ability damage (or to hit penalties) instead of paralyse/stun yes/no spells? Or would you expect another mechanic?

 

[Crothian]

Ya, I think the save or dies will be gone or at least more rare. I'd prediuct that they would not be in the core books, but it would appear in a suppliment since those are more likely to go beyond the scope of the vision of the game.

 

[delericho]

I expect that a lot of the things that are currently save-or-die will either be changed to give ability damage (for example, the Dex damage variant of petrification I've seen suggested here a few times), or to have longer onset times so that characters can seek a reversal. Oh, and some of them will have a save per round, as is now the case with hold person.

I don't expect save-or-dies to disappear entirely. Further, I hope they don't disappear entirely... unless that disappearance is matched with a near-disappearance of resurrection magic.

 

[Plane Sailing]

I imagine that you might see more things along the line of the 'Call of Stone' spell - you have to make a Fort save every round (for caster level /2 rounds), each failed save reduces your speed and gives a Dex penalty - and if you fail 4 saves in total you are turned to stone.

That kind of mechanism could be used for all kind of save or die spells too. More flavourful, gives people the opportunity to do something to attempt to mitigate the condition in the meantime etc.

Cheers

 

[Nightfall]

Save or die can be alright, IF they are used properly. But that's always hard to adjudicate just exactly when that might occur.

 

[Psion]

Now finally my question:
Do you believe 4th edition will e.g. have some sort of ability damage (or to hit penalties) instead of paralyse/stun yes/no spells? Or would you expect another mechanic?

I can only guess. If the "adversity adverse" attitude displayed behind the monster makeover articles become part of the prevailing game design philosophy of 4e, I could see it.

But I think it would be a tragic turn for the game. Or perhaps not so tragic, as it would make a decision to become a "last edition diehard" easier. Risk is an important part of the dynamic of the game. Beholders that have "rays that make you not feel so good" instead of death rays aren't beholders to me.

 

[Victim]

I think a lot might depend on other systematic changes. If damage rates remain as they are, then the frequency of "no save and die" situations renders many of the problems with save or die effects moot. Call of Stone like fixes to save or die effects are pretty worthless if people are going to be dead before it matters.

Some kind of staggered save system (ala Mutants and Masterminds 2) that require the target fail by 10 to die, and otherwise does some ability damage or whatnot is also possible.

 

[mmadsen]

I'd like to see a new mechanic where a failed save has some negative effect, then you roll another save to see if you're really hosed.

 

[Thomas Percy]

I'd like to see a new mechanic where a failed save has some negative effect, then you roll another save to see if you're really hosed.

Eventually, you can have a choice to do second saving throw next round; if you will pass - you are free of all effects; if you will fall - you will die.

or some failed save-or-die save consequenses can be reduced, eg. sleep / ghoul touch - not to sleep, but forced to total defence.

 

[Fedifensor]

Do you believe 4th edition will e.g. have some sort of ability damage (or to hit penalties) instead of paralyse/stun yes/no spells? Or would you expect another mechanic?

I really hope not. Ability damage is in many ways worse than save or die. At least with save or die, your saving throws are based on your level. Your ability scores are basically the same at 20th level as they were at 1st level - 5 stat bumps to distribute among six stats doesn't make a lot of difference. One maximized ray of enfeeblement can completely shut down a melee character...and that's just a penalty, not actual damage.