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Save that ends the effect

hawkwing2k5

First Post
At the end of most abilities that have an additional effect such as on going damage. The current rule is roll a d20, a 10 or better ends the effect at the end of the round. What would be the impact of making this number higher for both the player and the NPCs. Im thinking of making it better than 15 which changes it from a 45% failure to 75% failure. The reason for this is my group has the ability to pull natural 20s out of nowhere when ever they need them. They can do this on anyones dice and its in front of me as well.
 

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Darkwolf71

First Post
The 'coin toss' 10 or better system bugs me too, but I think going to 15+ is over the top. If I was going to change it, (which I will be bringing up next time we resume my 4e campaign) I think I would only go to 12+ saves. It pushes it out of the 50/50 range, but not so much that players can be totally screwed by it.
 


Tale

First Post
The 'coin toss' 10 or better system bugs me too, but I think going to 15+ is over the top. If I was going to change it, (which I will be bringing up next time we resume my 4e campaign) I think I would only go to 12+ saves. It pushes it out of the 50/50 range, but not so much that players can be totally screwed by it.
10-20 isn't 50%, it's 55%. It's 11 numbers out of 20.
 



hawkwing2k5

First Post
The reason for my desire to change it is due to the group being able to roll natural 20s when ever they need it. For example in a L5R game with exploding d10s (every 10 rolled is re rolled and added together) this group has players who can hit 125 or better on 2 dice. One player hit 85 with one die. That why the increase is desired to make it more fair or balanced. I know these guys and I cant let them have a 55% chance its TOO EASY. AS it is I DM FIAT way too much just to make combat more than a round or two
 

Ourph

First Post
If they can roll natural 20s at will how is increasing the target number to 15 going to help? A natural 20 is just as much of a success with a target number of 15 as it is with a target number of 10.
 

James McMurray

First Post
How much of the "rolls natural 20s at will" is perceived vs. how much is real? Before making house rules to account for statistical anomolies, you might want to see if it's actually a problem or just a case of not noticing 3s but everybody wooping when a 20 comes up. During the next session, watch every die roll and put a tick mark on scratch paper for every roll above 15 and under 5. It might just be a perception issue caused by clustering, not actual probability issues.

And I'll second (third?) the question: what will it matter that the DC is 15 if they always roll 20s?
 

hawkwing2k5

First Post
I understand that if they roll d20s all the time, but the increase gives better odds that they may fail. Trust me this is not a fluke I did the test to confirm that they roll high. On average over a campaign they out rolled me and the average DC by 5 to 10 points after takeing out the modifiers. I even accounted for accidental cheating, miss totaling the modifiers and other variables. Face it this group pulls horse shoes out of their bumm any time they need to save their butts. So if I squeek the odds in my favor it gives me a better chance to make em pay for their victories or at least make them feel worthy of the victory
 

James McMurray

First Post
I find it hard to believe, but if they really do have some sort of hoodoo working for them strong enough for you to need to house rule, go for it. I'd talk it over with them first, of course.

I smell a TPK coming though, because eventually the luck will normalize, and it only takes a couple of rounds of unreachable save DCs for the fight to go from in the bag to impossible.
 

Jhaelen

First Post
Trust me this is not a fluke I did the test to confirm that they roll high.
I won't believe that for a second but if you want to adjust the saves to get rid of this perceived problem, I'd just reverse them:
1-11: success
12-20: failure
If there really is a statistically relevant deviation because of their dice this will make them switch dice or fail saves more often.
 
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keterys

First Post
You can judiciously have some creatures' abilities have -2 to -5 to saves without making such a broad change. For example, see carrion crawlers.
 

Nail

First Post
I find it hard to believe, ...
Me too.

The test - which you claim you did - is to have them roll the d20 some twenty or thirty times, recording the value each time they roll. Your average will be between 9 and 12.

Remember, even with thirty rolls (30d20), it's quite likely your average will not be 10.5. You'd need hundreds of rolls to get that average.

I'll bet the problem is just one of "perception". Then again, maybe the players have dice that are a bit rounded on a few corners......
 



matkov

First Post
If they use fake dices to get 20's more often simple solution of 1-11 is save and 12-20 is failure will be enough. You keep the odds as they are suposed to be.
 

MarkB

Legend
I understand that if they roll d20s all the time, but the increase gives better odds that they may fail. Trust me this is not a fluke I did the test to confirm that they roll high. On average over a campaign they out rolled me and the average DC by 5 to 10 points after takeing out the modifiers. I even accounted for accidental cheating, miss totaling the modifiers and other variables. Face it this group pulls horse shoes out of their bumm any time they need to save their butts. So if I squeek the odds in my favor it gives me a better chance to make em pay for their victories or at least make them feel worthy of the victory

Even if your group has previously rolled well through pure statistical anomaly, the hard statistical fact is that luck has no memory. Barring actual cheating on their part, their past performance has no bearing whatsoever upon how well they'll perform in future.

Furthermore, lucky rolls for a player represent superior performance in-game by their character. If you increase difficulty levels because you perceive them to be rolling well, then you are literally punishing them for good performance. Ultimately, that can only engender resentment.
 

garyh

First Post
Besides the whole "I don't believe in group luck" angle, my response to this is that it greatly skews power selection. The powers are balanced with the standard save rule. Making save effects last longer makes save effects MUCH better options than powers that don't have them.
 

Griogre

First Post
The reason for my desire to change it is due to the group being able to roll natural 20s when ever they need it. For example in a L5R game with exploding d10s (every 10 rolled is re rolled and added together) this group has players who can hit 125 or better on 2 dice. One player hit 85 with one die. That why the increase is desired to make it more fair or balanced. I know these guys and I cant let them have a 55% chance its TOO EASY. AS it is I DM FIAT way too much just to make combat more than a round or two

LOL, you know what you need to do? I'll give you a simple fix. 1's are crits, automatic misses are 20's. Save on a 1-11 fail on everything higher. The Villians and Vigilantes system was like and it freaked out tons of my players. :D

This will *destroy* the mojo of all but the toughest of the tough mojo. LOL make sure they use the same dice too. :p
 

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