Save the Undead or How to fix Turning, Greater Turning...

[Kyamsil]

I have been doing some calculations based on the system I posted on the previous post (v. 1.3) and it deals too few damage to be a useful ability. I took the first cleric (the undead-slaying nightmare) as an example.

He has 18 Cha and has the Glory domain (+2 on turning checks) and lots of ranks in Religion (another +2) for a total of +8 on Turning Checks. It has Improved Turning and effective cleric level of 10 for a total of 11 effective turning levels.

That means that rolling on the Turning Check table it gets a lowest result of 9 for effective Cleric Level -1 and a highest result of 28 for Cleric Level +4 and an average of 18- for effective Cleric Level +2. So in average he would have a Turning Check result of 13 for 6d6 damage on a standard turning attempt and 13d6 on a Greater Turning.

He affects 3d6 (standard 2d6+1d6 more because of Glory domain) + 11 (effective turning level) +4 (Cha bonus) HD of undead, for an average of 26 HD.

I pitted that against some undead like vampire spawns, wraiths, wights and so on. With the Will DC 19 roll for half damage, turn resistance and all that the amounts of damage he deals are ridiculous, so it is too toned down (as he is a character focused on that purpose).

After making some calculations, I have reached a conclussion that will be probably the way turning will work in my campaign from now on. Instead of 1d6 for each two effective levels on a turning check it will be 1d6 for each effective level, with 1d10 for each effective level on a greater turning. It is enough damage to have an impact on the encounter but not so much as to unbalance them when pitted against undead with the appropiate CR for the characters.

I have also decided to add the size bonus hp that constructs have to undead, and took that into account on the calculations. Please feel free to continue giving feedback, post comments, suggestions and so on.

Turning Undead 1.4

Follow the procedure on the PHB: Turning Check to see how powerful your turning is (from effective turning level -4 to effective turning level +4) and the Turning Damage roll to see how many HD of undead will be affected (Turn Resistance is added to the HD of undead with that special quality to calculate the number of undead turned).

Each undead affected receives 1d6 points of damage for each level of the Turning Check result. A Will save with a DC of 10+half effective turning level+Cha Bonus is allowed for half damage.

Turn Resistance can lessen the amount of damage received, working like Resistance to Energy of 5xTurn Resistance against damage dealt by Turning Undead.

An undead that has any amount of damage dealt to it by turning is Shaken as long as it doesn't heal that damage.

A Greater Turning attempt follows the same procedure, except that the damage dealt is 1d10 for each level of the Turning Check result. A Will save with the same DC also halves the damage.


Rebuking Undead:

Works in the same way as Turning, but deals a special profane (non-lethal) damage. It has the same effects as turning (save for half damage, Shaken if an undead has any profane damage and so on). An undead that has an amount of profane damage equal to its hp is controlled by the rebuking character and the profane damage total is healed instantly.


Dispelling Turning:

An undead that has any damage dealt to it from turning (and is thus Shaken) can be healed with a Rebuking attempt. The amount of damage healed is the same as with a rebuking attempt. The Turn Resistance applies to the Turning Damage roll to see how many HD of undead are affected, but doesn't prevent any damage as usual. Also, an undead can select to fail the Will save for half damage. This only heals the undead of any damage dealt to it by turning, not other sources of damage, and excess points are wasted (they don't count as rebuking profane damage).


Bolstering Undead:

Make a Rebuke Undead attempt following the same procedure as for Dispelling Turning (Turn Resistance adds to HD but doesn't prevent damage). The undead affected gain Turn Resistance equal to the damage dealt divided by 5. This Turn Resistance doesn't stack with existing Turn Resistance, so it only applies if higher than their Turn Resistance.

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

I am tempted to introduce a damage based system on par with sneak attack.

• For level 1 and every odd level add 1d6 turn undead damage.
  Range 60' cone
  Undead make a will save based on: 10 + 1/2 cleric level + cha modifier
  Undead save? Take 1/2 damage
  Undead don't save? Take full damage
  Turn resistance is a bonus to the undead's will save

I am not too sure how I would work commanding, bolstering, cowering, undead fleeing, etc...

Whatever the method I want to see the mechanic simple and not needing to reference a table. I hate that particularly.

 

[Kyamsil]

Whatever the method I want to see the mechanic simple and not needing to reference a table. I hate that particularly.

You could use the same method that I apply but removing the first roll on the Turning Check table. Use directly the effective turning level to work out the amount of damage instead of having it vary between level-4 and level+4. Then, roll for affected HD of undead and apply the rest of the method. Done .

I prefered the other approach of maintaining most mechanics as they were so I don't have to tweak around with turning related feats or domain powers. You could use a different approach to making the effective level of the turning variable without resorting to a table.

Say for example, the roll on the Turning Check (d20+Cha bonus+know(religion) synergy bonus+ other applicable bonus) table is simple to remember without having to check the table:
Roll against a DC of 10. For each 3 less than the DC substract 1 from your effective turning level, For each 3 by which you pass the DC add 1 to your effective turning level. In both cases, you can't add or remove more than 4 to your effective level (result of 0 or lower and 22 or higher).

Other methods of adding a random factor to the turning check can be devised:

Roll a d10. If you have modifiers higher than +2 or lower than -2 roll an extra d10 for each +/-2 on your modifier to turning checks. Get the highest result if your modifier is possitive or the lowest one if negative, substract 5 from it and apply the resulting modifier to your effective turning level. This gives a result from 1-5=-4 to 10-5=+5, so it is close to the standard method.

EDIT: Wrong button, sorry

About handling undead fleeing, cowering and all that: I prefer an approach that deals damage instead of tinkering with undead fleeing all around the dungeon. I think that makes it a bad mechanic for the game, as most of the times the characters end up pursuing the now fleeing undead, which is usually much trouble (specially if they are incorporeal). More than a couple times I have seen an encounter with undead only gain a bit of time to prepare: Incorporeal Undead appear, cleric turns them, they run across walls, warn other dungeon denizens (even if simply by their passage in fear) and come back some time later (as soon as the turning effect dissapears.

Personally I hate any class feature (great ki shout, turning, etc.) that forces enemies to run away. That alone can ruin a whole adventure because of all the trouble a single turning check or fleeing enemy because of great ki shout, fear spell, etc... can make.

That's another reason I prefered to make it do damage and count as shaken (gives the characters an edge without forcing the undead to flee and make a mess of the adventure).

My 2 cents.