Saves vs area affect spells: Clarification needed

[Leopold]

Problem has arisen where I would like some clarification on area affect spells and improved evasion.

For example: You have a rogue with an enemy in front of him and an open square behind him his left is occupied and his right is a wall. A sorcerer casts lightning bolt straight at the enemy and subsequently at the rogue. Now the rogue uses his improved evasion to leap out of the way and leaps backwards.

The question is this: Does he still get improved evasion and can subsequently get out of the way even though he is going backwards into a square that is empty but still in the path of the lightning bolt?


To me I would say he would as if a caster casts fireball and you are the center of it you still get improved evasion to get out of it even though you are well within the blast radius and getting hit by it nonetheless.


Enlighten me please..

 

[ruleslawyer]

Your rogue does not even need an open 5' square nearby in order to use evasion. He can (and the rules assume he does) stay in his own square, but his evasion ability functions nonetheless.

By the rules, evasion and improved evasion do not involve any actual movement of 5' or more. The only "movement"-based restriction on evasion is that the character needs to be able to maneuver somewhat to use the ability (thus, a rogue in a cage or a 2'x2' airshaft would be unable to use the ability).

I know it seems a bit illogical, but think of evasion as Matrix-style movement where the rogue/monk can react as he sees the lightning bolt "coming" and hits the floor in order to let the bolt whiz overhead. Or the rogue plunging so quickly through the expanding surface of a fireball that it barely singes his clothes. It's meant to be a near-supernatural ability.

 

[dvvega]

Improved Evasion requires a suspension of belief.

Situation: Lightning Bolt
The Rogue could conceivably duck under the bolt so Improved Evasion would work.

Situation: Fireball
Although there is nowhere for him to feasibly run, duck, or otherwise get out of the way, he still makes it.

To make this situation more "realistic" I personally add a DC modifier to the save, +2, +4, and so forth, depending on how much room he really has.

In the case you described, you could call it an "IMPOSSIBLE" save and give it a -20 (your player will try to kill you of course), but you get the idea

 

[Leopold]

so basically the only time I would not be able to get any type of evasionish save would be if I was bound and gagged or held in a restricted area such as surrounded on all sides with no room to manuever and they are physically on my square. We play on a map that's why i ask.

Furthermore can you explain where you get these rules from?

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I believe there are two good ways to get an answer
1) look carefully through the books. In this case, I would try to look at the save descriptions, the description of the evasion ability (monk and rogue), and in the magic section.
2) Ask on this board.

A further answer might be: Ask the Sage. If you don`t like its answer, ask on this board. This will lead to an interesting, possibly long lasting discussion, and you will probably find many arguments for your own position, if you have any.

 

[Artoomis]

I'll summarize, if I may.

Any time you get a Reflex save for 1/2 damage, Evasion and Improved Evasion work.

If you don't get a save (let's say you intentially don't duck, or you are in a very restricted space), then you don't get Evasion or Improved Evasion either.

For actual rules text, I'll quote the SRD a bit:

Evasion: At 2nd level, a rogue gains evasion. If exposed to any effect that normally allows a character to attempt a Reflex saving throw for half damage, the rogue takes no damage with a successful saving throw. Evasion can only be used if the rogue is wearing light armor or no armor. It is an extraordinary ability.

Improved Evasion: The rogue takes only half damage on a failed save.

Sorry I can't find anything in the SRD about when you do NOT get a Reflex save. But, as you can see, you get Evasion/Improved Evasion any time you would normally get a Reflex save for 1/2 damage.

Note that you'll find no mention of needing any extra space for Evasion (not in the PHB anywhere, I assure you). You need only the 5' square you are in. If you are having trouble visualizing this I recommend:

1. Suspension of disbelief.

2. Actually draw a 5' X 5' square on the floor. Now stand in it and look at how much maneuvering room you have. Not too bad, eh?

 

[IceBear]

Hmmmm - there must be something in the PHB about needing room to use Evasion because it was being quoted by several people a few weeks ago in the debate about whether or not someone who is helpless would get a Reflex save.

IceBear

 

[kreynolds]

Sorry I can't find anything in the SRD about when you do NOT get a Reflex save.

Here ya' go.
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As with a Reflex save for any creature, a character must have room to move in order to evade. A bound character or one in a completely restrictive area (crawling through a 2 1/2-foot-wide shaft, for example) cannot use evasion.
As with a Reflex save for any creature, evasion is a reflexive ability. The character need not know that the attack is coming to use evasion.
---------------------
It's in the special abilities section.

 

[Leopold]

but where is this mythical 'restricted space'?

 

[kreynolds]

but where is this mythical 'restricted space'?

Umm...a shoebox, small sewer pipe, chimney. That do it for ya'?