Saving RPGA Classics

[Piratecat]

(Incidentally, Classics became at the very end "show case WotC's new product." The trouble was, these were typically "show case WotC's new product badly." I'd be perfectly happy to write modules displaying the coolness of the new splatbook, which is a value Classics can provide to the RPGA as a marketting tool. But the modules have to be good modules, or there's less than no point.

It's worth noting that the superb Bruce Cordell adventure "Gates of Firestorm Peak" was written to showcase the 2e books Combat and Tactics and Skills and Powers. Good adventures can sell splatbooks, that's for sure. But I saw the same thing you did; the adventure linked towards promoting the "you can adventure even after being dead" book wasn't particularly impressive, either.

 

[smerwin29]

As kind of a refocus of the topic, and this is the same question I once put to Ian at RPGA HQ: "why does the RPGA want to bother with Classics at all?"

[By the way, I love Classics with the in-depth roleplaying and character hooks.]

The Living and D&D Campaign models sell books, as people have to buy them to get all their character options. Classics, in their old state, really don't. They possibly could be made to, but it would be a tougher sell. The problem really isn't even making them fun or setting up something cool. It's getting people to play them. It's not an "if you build it, they will come" scenario. You have to give them more of a reason to want to play.

 

[Glyfair]

As kind of a refocus of the topic, and this is the same question I once put to Ian at RPGA HQ: "why does the RPGA want to bother with Classics at all?"

I know that a strong D&D classic line would give a dimension to the RPGA that it lacks now. They really are weak in the "introduction to the RPGA" area.

I have tried to build up an RPGA base at my local game store. One of the hurdles I faced was that many, many players aren't interested into having a campaign be their foot into the water. Campaigns that have been going on for a while are the worst. Even though the D&D Campaigns mitigate this a bit with their level bumps, it's intimidating to many.

One group in my area has been running the Living Greyhawk for quite a while and all have high level characters. There is no room for a first level character to start playing since everyone is much higher level and interested in advancing their characters.

Right now there are very few stand alone RPGA events. Dungeon adventures are home games only (and the RPGA has been horrible in keeping the database up to date). Home games are by definition home games only. All that's left are the D&D Open events, that are premiere events and not available to what the local "rabble."

 

[pedr]

I suppose that the point is that in the OGL era, the only advantage to working with the RPGA is having access to Wizards' IP.

I don't really know what the state of play was before 3E and the OGL, but now anyone can produce and distribute D&D adventures (well, so long as you don't call them that!) without needing the approval of WotC. I'm not really quite sure what the advantage to anyone is of having the RPGA get involved in that process. What the RPGA does is to provide shared-world campaigns which can use Wizards' closed products. I don't really see what benefit anyone would get from them starting to produce classic modules again.

If there's a market, of some kind, for freely downloadable one-shot adventures with pregenerated PCs, then someone will fill it. The fact that there aren't (m)any such products suggests that it isn't something which is cost-effective. And unless it's moving product or doing a great job of bringing new players to the game, there's not much point in the RPGA doing it, either.

Which is, of course, a great shame ... but I don't think that Wizards can afford to dump money into the RPGA without getting a return.

 

[kenobi65]

I suppose that the point is that in the OGL era, the only advantage to working with the RPGA is having access to Wizards' IP.

The other advantage is in having RPGA's distribution system. Someone can be creating great modules, but if no one knows they're out there, or how to get them, they won't be played. Being distributed through the RPGA system gives a level of visibility that might be hard to match.

 

[kenobi65]

One group in my area has been running the Living Greyhawk for quite a while and all have high level characters. There is no room for a first level character to start playing since everyone is much higher level and interested in advancing their characters.

Possibly in recognition of this, the LG regions largely "restarted" their story arcs last year (with the Year 6 modules). At least in my region, Verbobonc, the Triad strongly encouraged even existing players to consider creating new PCs for playing the regional modules, as many of them are now topping out at APL 6 or 8. If one is looking to get into Living Greyhawk, now's probably a good time to do it.

 

[Firebeetle]

Firebeetle, I may be misunderstanding you. If I am, can you please explain how what you're describing works?

OK, It's Gen Con. The next Classic series "Fall of the Pheonix" premieres. There are three rounds to play, you have to meet a certain score in each round to proceed to the next. This is certified with a certificate signed by the judge showing points. These points can be scored in a number of ways, including roleplaying. Regardless, the adventure is a challenge on all levels, combat, strategy, traps, puzzles, roleplaying, touch choices, the whole nine yards. Each adventure should feel "packed". Master judges only to run these, to raise the bar on the judge qualification. This means the event is a bit hard to get into, which raises the desire level, promotes more DMs taking the Master test, and keeps the Classics on an even level with their demand. If Classics cannot compete with Living campaigns, then let's make them more exclusive.

NB Maybe you choose from the Iconics for your team. Maybe the mods tell the story of the Iconics. Mayber certain ones are required for certain adventures. Maybe there is a group of pre-gens with lots built in interaction and more central to the plot. Maybe the Iconics have the built in interaction. I'm certain it will be possible to capture that old Classics feeling. Let's stop arguing about that for now and move on.

After the con, master judges can order and run these mods. Yes, it's a lot like the Open, except you can play them at a gameday. The series is retired at D&D XP, and a new one is premiered.

The draw:
A.) Competition. gamers love points
B.) Excellent mods
C.) You can play it at a gameday
D.) Master DM finally have something to crow about.

Old-time Classic players can still have their character interaction. It can even be built into the point system. If Ignod the Paladin, who was raised by the Beggar King, tries to save him when the rest of the party thinks he is evil, then there is a point bonus. If Rabbel the Rancid fails to try and betray the party because he is really in the Rat Lord's employ, then there is a deduction.

 

[Firebeetle]

Actually very possible.

Are you going to respond to my two points or are you going to just insist?

 

[smerwin29]

OK, It's Gen Con. The next Classic series "Fall of the Pheonix" premieres. There are three rounds to play, you have to meet a certain score in each round to proceed to the next. This is certified with a certificate signed by the judge showing points. These points can be scored in a number of ways, including roleplaying. Regardless, the adventure is a challenge on all levels, combat, strategy, traps, puzzles, roleplaying, touch choices, the whole nine yards. Each adventure should feel "packed". Master judges only to run these, to raise the bar on the judge qualification. This means the event is a bit hard to get into, which raises the desire level, promotes more DMs taking the Master test, and keeps the Classics on an even level with their demand. If Classics cannot compete with Living campaigns, then let's make them more exclusive.

I honestly wish that there would be a way to bring back Classics, in whatever format that would work. I just don't see any significant demand for them, and I don't see any sort of format that would make the demand significant enough, short of cash prizes.

 

[00Machado]

Nope, not exactly. In a properly designed classic game, the roleplaying which evolved directly from the characters comprises a large amount of the gameplay. It has relatively little to do with in-game puzzles, and a whole lot to do with character personalities.

Thanks for the clarification. These do sound fun. It kind of gives a framework for how to play a character that you've never seen before. Becuase they're a one shot, you can allow and even encourage things you wouldn't want for an extended campaign, that are fun to just cut loose with from time to time.