One issue I remember with 3/3.5 was spell casters, spell penetration, and saving throws. Low level spells became useless at higher levels. Sleep would be useful for a few levels, but then quickly started to become less than useful because monster saves would sky rocket. Unfortunately, it's been a while since I played 3/3.5 and I no longer have any books (lost in a move), so I could be off the mark here. But, has PF changed any of this?
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Saving Throws and Spells
- Thread starter cerealman
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freyar
Extradimensional Explorer
The rules for determining the saving throw DC and for making checks to overcome spell resistance are the same. But I haven't gone through the spells to see if saves are less important, and the monsters aren't really out yet to see how important SR is. So I can't quite tell, really.
kitsune9
Adventurer
Offhand, I would say that hasn't really changed. The low-level spells are still only good for low-level encounters.
Liquidsabre
Explorer
The feature of gaining higher level spell slots to combat more powerful monsters remains in PF. As in previous editions, a handful of low level spells useful against low level foes (burning hands, fear, sleep, etc.) are swapped for more utility and defensive-based spells (Alarm, Comprehend Languages, Detect Secret Doors, Shield, Obscuring Mist, Protection from Evil, etc.). Not so much an issue as it is a feature. You gain higher level spell slots to combat tough foes for your current level and retain lower level spell slots to help handle the myriad of different problems your party may face as well as provide buffs, counters, resistances, etc.
I realize how it works, it's been the same way since I started playing, but when you only have a few high level spells, you run dry pretty quick. This is why Spell Points are so popular. Even still, Defensive based spells usually allow for saving throws as well, negating their usefulness.
Still, even high level spells suffer from ST and SR. I can save my big spells for the big baddie, who will most likely have high saves and SR, or blow it the little guys for nothing, leaving me high and dry for the big fight.
This makes me wonder if they put any effort into the 15 minute work day or the reliance on excessive magical items that plagued 3/3.5.
Edit: Sorry if this is coming off as more a rant. It's just disheartening to hear Paizo and Pathfinder fans proclaim so much for the new game and how it fixes all the problems of 3.5 and I've yet to see anything close to that. It's fine if they just wanted to keep 3.5 rules alive for sale so they could keep up what they were doing, but it just makes me feel like it was a bait and switch. =/
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Keep in mind that compatibility with existing 3.5e materials was a huge consideration. While renovating grapple allows a single simple rule that can be converted on the fly, rebuilding spell slots doesn't. Every NPC spellcaster in every 3rd-party module would need some re-write. Potentially some serious re-write. Imagine if every wizard was replaced with a psion. That'd take serious time.
I absolutely hear you. If you're not seeing the improvements over 3.5 core, you're either not looking very hard or you have different problems with 3.5 than the average player/DM.
Also remember that throughout the beta process, Jason was asked to scale back the degree of change. Cleric domains and wizard schools for instance got dramatically slapped back to 3.5e style. The masses spoke and this product was designed as a group effort to appeal to most of us.
Liquidsabre
Explorer
Bah no worries man. I'm still irked nothing was ever done to change the dubiously useful metamagic feats. A lot of folk are excited about the new release certainly but no one ever claimed PF fixed *all* of the possible issues from 3.5e. You can check out the PRD yourself and read the rules to decide for free if you like it or not.
Besides, I wouldn't say that saving throws vs. spell effects or that spell resistance are problems with the game system. They are a part of the challenges you find in the game. In the same way high AC monsters, DR monster types, high mobility monsters, and regenerating monsters all present similar challenges to melee types.
You just shift tactics. Conjuration spells generally bypass SR, ranged touch and touch attack spells don't allow saving throws, casting a spell against a foe's weaker saving throw, and buffing party members to deal greater damage are all viable alternatives given a challenging encounter/foe.
I'm A Banana
Potassium-Rich
One of my most common house rules has been: Add half caster level instead of spell level.
Yeah, you can swap out offensive spells for puzzle/defensive spells, but that's a lot harder to do with a class like the Sorcerer, for instance. And I like keeping the class in the same role: if you want a spell that's outside your usual circle, get a scroll or a wand and call it a day.
Yeah, not a huge fan of that. Ah well.
Yeah, you can swap out offensive spells for puzzle/defensive spells, but that's a lot harder to do with a class like the Sorcerer, for instance. And I like keeping the class in the same role: if you want a spell that's outside your usual circle, get a scroll or a wand and call it a day.
Yeah, not a huge fan of that. Ah well.
