Saving throws are a coin toss?

[I'm A Banana]

Less specifically, if this edition kills off the "magic is a license to print money" meme that has infested D&D for 30 years, I will be a very happy nerd geek kitty.

I won't miss ubermagic. The more specific, more limited spells are a good step.

If we just use plot hand-waving for some of the more long-term effects, I'll be disappointed, though.

And I want my 30th level demigod to be able to affect the 1st level goober more than 45% of the time, and I don't want my 1st level goober to touch my 30th level demigod even 45% of the time.

But that sounds like it'd be a pretty easy ability/feat/whatever to jack in.

 

[hong]

And I want my 30th level demigod to be able to affect the 1st level goober more than 45% of the time, and I don't want my 1st level goober to touch my 30th level demigod even 45% of the time.

If that 1st level goober has an Int attack that can beat your Will save 45% of the time, I'd bet on the goober.

 

[fnwc]

Except for this guy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JD2Mb8pM6E8

You mean this guy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlUsiKfeDfo

 

[Sphyre]

Except for this guy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JD2Mb8pM6E8

You mean this guy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlUsiKfeDfo

I swear, Vin Diesel is way nerdier than I am - and I'm posting on ENworld!

It's like the Weird Al song Jerry Springer: "I've got way too much class to watch Jerry Springer. Come over here and pull on my finger." Look, I did another nerdy thing and mentioned Weird Al, yet I'm still less nerdy than Vin Diesel. He's like White and Nerdy nerdy.

 

[Eyada]

Phrases like 'sheer stupidity' are getting thrown around a lot in this forum. Is it not more likely that if it is always 55% (and I don't know whether it is or not any better than you do), that there is a jolly good reason for it?

In this instance, it doesn't matter what the mechanical reasoning is. I don't care if it's for "making the math work", game balance, class balance, gameflow, speeding up combat, or any other imaginable reason. There is no possible mechanical explanation that compensates for the rediculously abhorrent effects such a thing would have on the verisimilitude of D&D. A flat 55% success rate for all saving throws does not belong in D&D. Why?

One of the core conceits of D&D is: Level Matters. While playing D&D, players assume that Level plays a real, logical, and consistent part in determining the outcome of events. The higher your Level, the better you are at doing things. No player would expect a Level 1 Fighter to kill a Level 25 Fighter under normal circumstances, just as no player would expect that Level 1 Fighter to have the same ability to shake off a Sleep spell that the far more experienced and hardened Level 25 Fighter has. Instituting a flat 55% success rate on saving throws would undermine the difference between a Level 1 Fighter and a Level 25 Fighter when it comes to resisting Magic, thus violating the core principle that Level Matters.

A flat 55% success rate on saving throws completely ignores Level, thus violating the verisimilitude of the D&D game world. If a Level 1 Goblin peon with 6 Wisdom has the same chance to recover from a Sleep spell as Asmodeus, Lord of the Nine Hells, then the system you are using to adjudicate such a thing violates the spirit of D&D. In fact, I would go so far as to say that any system that yields such a result is not D&D, pure and simple. We can bicker about "Whatever Wizards Rubberstamps as D&D == D&D" all day long, but part of the core gameplay that makes D&D what it is does not allow for such a saving throw system.

So that's my reasoning. A Coin-Toss-For-Saving-Throws system does not belong in D&D for the aforementioned reason, hence my earlier proposal to houserule it away if Wizards feels compelled to include such an idiotic thing in 4E. If it is so ingrained into the 4E ruleset that it cannot be easily houseruled, the rest of 4E will have to pretty unbelievably amazing to convince me to buy the new edition.

That said, I'm a huge 4E fanboy and I can't wait until it's released. I'm carelessly optimistic that Wizards would never include such a boneheaded mechanic in 4E, or, if they do, I'm assuming it will be easy to houserule.

 

[Iron Sky]

Level matters for the initial effects (the attacker needing to beat the defender's level-adjusted defense).

That said, if the same 30th level wizard casts sleep on a first level and fighter and hits and casts it on a 30th level fighter and hits, they both have the same chance to save (though the 30th level fighter probably has at least one racial ability/feat/magic item power/class power that gives him bonuses to saves/automatic saves/save rerolls x times per encounter/day).

If Epic level characters get powers that start with "once per day, when you die..." they probably have something that lets them break out of the save.

Of course, I think the issue you're more concerned about isn't the 30th level Fighter's(target's) ability to save, but more the fact that if the 30th level wizard's(attacker's) hits with a sleep spell or the 1st level wizard hits with the sleep spell, the save to get out of it is the same.

Personally, I think the difference in the relative difficulty of hitting will more than make up for the same-ness of the save if the power does hit - after all, if the 1st level wizard actually does manage to hit the 30th level fighter's 35 Will Defense(i.e. crits), more power to him (though he's still going to die in a few rounds when the Fighter does save).

 

[small pumpkin man]

*snip*

Considering when 3.x Asmodeus casts ray of enfeeblement or glitterdust on a peasant, a 20th level Wizard or a 40th level Fighter, it has exactly the same duration, I'm don't quite understand how durations which don't rely on level are somehow "not D&D", let alone "sheer stupidity".

 

[Stalker0]

Level matters for the initial effects (the attacker needing to beat the defender's level-adjusted defense).

That said, if the same 30th level wizard casts sleep on a first level and fighter and hits and casts it on a 30th level fighter and hits, they both have the same chance to save (though the 30th level fighter probably has at least one racial ability/feat/magic item power/class power that gives him bonuses to saves/automatic saves/save rerolls x times per encounter/day).

Actually that's not true. The will defense of a 30th level fighter is a heck of a lot higher than a 1st level one. If you miss with sleep, at most you can slow them for 1 round. (even though the text says save removes, the duration only lasts until the wizard's next action). So the 30th level fighter may not have to make a save.


Besides, is this any worse than the fact that in 3.5, if a 30th level wizard casts a spell on a 30th level or a 1st level fighter they will likely BOTH be incapacitated for 30 rounds!!!

 

[Iron Sky]

Level matters for the initial effects (the attacker needing to beat the defender's level-adjusted defense).

That said, if the same 30th level wizard casts sleep on a first level and fighter and hits and casts it on a 30th level fighter and hits, they both have the same chance to save (though the 30th level fighter probably has at least one racial ability/feat/magic item power/class power that gives him bonuses to saves/automatic saves/save rerolls x times per encounter/day).

^^^

Also address what you just said at the end of my first post.

 

[Sphyre]

One of the core conceits of D&D is: Level Matters.

And one of the key concepts of D&D 4e is that you can slide up and down the monster scale and create a challenge with a much wider range of monsters for a party than before. Level still matters. You'll kick those lower level things butts still. But it'll be because you've got so many other things going for you, not everything going for you.

The fact that you're putting that effect on the target in the first place is influenced by level because your attack vs their defense is much higher. Powers are balanced by the fact that they will be instantaneous, last one round, last until a save (which is actually, on average a specific time) last for an encounter, sustain, a specific time, or permanent (if permanent powers exist). It doesn't need to have a further unbalancing factor to cut durations shorter.