D&D 5E Saving Throws design choice

[the Jester]

I wouldn't adjust save DCS or boni until seeing how the game plays as written. I'm pretty sure that between the concentration mechanic, the lack of super-escalating DCs, the bevy of ability increases over time, the new spellcasting system (fewer slots), etc, it will work pretty well.

 

[Nikosandros]

I wouldn't adjust save DCS or boni until seeing how the game plays as written. I'm pretty sure that between the concentration mechanic, the lack of super-escalating DCs, the bevy of ability increases over time, the new spellcasting system (fewer slots), etc, it will work pretty well.

On this, I fully agree. I was throwing suggestions for the sake of argument, but I won't change this stuff until I've used it in play. Actually, once I have the full rules, I'd like to try some very high level play to see what happens.

 

[Stalker0]

I'm pretty sure that between the concentration mechanic... it will work pretty well.

This I think is the biggest X factor right now, the one I need to see in play. Many of the really strong spells have concentration components, so breaking concentration may be standard operating procedure when facing wizards.

 

[Sadrik]

This is the biggest missed opportunity by 5e.

To be perfectly clear, I do not think this was a missed opportunity. I think that it was just a decision and it was not a bad one. Reducing it to 3 saves instead of 6 is perfectly fine. There were some questions as to how the mental stats would break down with the saves. This clears it up completely and it is not a bad choice.

I ask for that design decision to be carried through though. I do not want to see the other saves crop up as outliers. That would be a bad design decision. Basic D&D uses 3 saves.

Another strategy could be removing the save proficiencies altogether and going with skills. Though this does not fix the math flaw discussed in the other threads, it may be easier to pick up a new skill than a new save proficiency and it brings in the skill checks from the various spells. I actually really like this.

Skills as saves:
STR Athletics
DEX Acrobatics
CON Endurance*
INT Investigation
WIS Will*
CHA Insight**

*New Skill
**Moved from Wis

 

[Mercule]

What would happen in 5e if you added your level or 1/2 level rounded down to saving throws? I don't know if that is an unnecessary complication or not.

It would look a lot like 3E.

 

[Stalker0]

It would look a lot like 3E.

I will say 3e's saving throw issue was a lot worse.

First of all, you had the general +6 difference between good and bad at 20th level....assuming no multiclassing. Multiclassing tended to make this worse.

Second, ability scores had much higher variances. You would commonly see a rogue with 30 dex and an 8 strength.


So the overall saving throw variation in 3e was much broader. You literally had cases of autopass and automiss with spells. In 5e, while there is a gap, its not nearly as wide.

 

[Li Shenron]

To be perfectly clear, I do not think this was a missed opportunity.

I this it is. The 3-saves system isn't bad, in fact it worked ok in 3e, but I was hoping for something better and for a progressive idea. Actually, they had the idea since the start, talked about it many times, but never pulled through with it until they finally went backwards. But they didn't pulled through the other way either since as you say we get also the other 3 useless saves in the game.

I wish they held on to their first idea that saving throws could be nothing more than ability checks, hence working towards the general emphasis on the 6 scores in 5e. I liked the first implementation when we didn't even have a level-based bonus to ST (and spells DC). But then instead of going forward and completing the idea, they went backwards to 3e saves (without the floor value).

I would have preferred more representation of Int, Str and Cha saves in spells. If they wanted to, it would have been easy to do so: they could have picked all paralyzation-type spells and gave them a Strength save, all illusions and give them an Int save, and all compulsions/charms and give them a Cha save (representing a challenge of personality between the caster and the target). It would not be important to really achieve an even spread (i.e. ~15% spells each save) but at least a significant representation of all 6.

It would have helped a bit with the long-time problem of dumping stats. Almost nobody dumps Constitution (at least because of the HP), and only occasional PCs are given low Dex and Wis. Why? Because those 3 abilities are generally perceived as defensive abilities, something you're going to pay for if you have it too low, because you cannot choose when to use them: you'll be hit more often with a low Dex (however now in 5e we will have heavy-armor wearers dump Dex more easily) and you'll be attacked by surprise more often with a low Wis.

Strength, Intelligence and Charisma are proactive abilities i.e. you choose when to use them, and that actually means that you can always choose just not to bother with that strategy: you have a low Strength? Fine, you just don't use melee weapons, you use spells or ranged weapons; you have a low Intelligence? You just don't play the sage/knowledged guy; you have a low Charisma? You just let someone else speak for you. *

These three stats get dumped all the time, and the 6-saves system at least gave me some hope of mitigating that.

* remember that you have to see these the other way around, because it's not that you just happen to have a low Strength therefore you choose not to use melee weapons; the reality is that if you've decided to be a spellcaster or archer therefore you can afford to dump Strength at no cost, while nobody can dump Con/Dex/Wis at no cost

 

[Stalker0]

I will say...while I loved 3e's unified system, there was one thing about 2e system that I miss...the fact that difficulty scaled with the effect you want to produce.

It was harder to activate a death effect than a poison one...because there was an understand that death is worse than poison, so it should be less likely.


Thinking about it, I would love a mechanic that works like this:

Saving Throw: Wisdom (Advantage). This means that you automatically start the saving throw with advantage.


You could apply this to really nasty spells, so that you can tailor the saving throw to the level of pain the spell is going to bring.

 

[Nikosandros]

I will say...while I loved 3e's unified system, there was one thing about 2e system that I miss...the fact that difficulty scaled with the effect you want to produce.

It was harder to activate a death effect than a poison one...because there was an understand that death is worse than poison, so it should be less likely.

I like the style of saves in AD&D which depend on the 'attack" (spell, poison, breath weapon, etc.) instead of the defense, but Poison, Paralyzation and Death Magic are in fact a single category in AD&D, so the save is the same.

 

[Thalionalfirin]

I like the style of saves in AD&D which depend on the 'attack" (spell, poison, breath weapon, etc.) instead of the defense, but Poison, Paralyzation and Death Magic are in fact a single category in AD&D, so the save is the same.

I like the concept of the AD&D saving throws in which it became easier overall to make saves. I'm trying to come up with a house ruled alternate saving throw system that would reflect this. Basically, it would move the emphasis on Save or Die/Suck to direct damage as characters increased levels.

I thought about allowing proficiency bonus to all saves but all that does is allow saves to keep up with spell save DCs. What I want to do is make it increasingly easier for a save to be made, relative to a spell, as characters (or monsters) get more powerful.