Say NO to 3.5

[kreynolds]

That's a bit like saying a stripped down basic Ford Focus and a top of the line Jaguar XJR are competing head to head for the same buyers, though.

Gah! So which one is the stripped down basic Ford Focus...the PH or APH? Please, leave the analogies to me.

EDIT: Just noticed this in your edit...

kreynolds: I've tried three times now to get you to explain why you think the way you do. Each time you've essentially said that you just do and that's that.

No. You've been too busy simply stating that I'm wrong. Point in case; "not a shred of truth", "flat out wrong".

You dismiss my points as irrelevant...

That's because I feel my stance is perfectly justified. Seriously.

...but have nothing to offer in their place.

Not true. Again, you've been busy...

I mean, really, if you don't want to discuss this, why post your opinion in the first place?

I _did_ want to discuss this, but not with you anymore. You just put me off with your manner.

 

[Desdichado]

Gah! So which one is the stripped down basic Ford Focus...the PH or APH? Please, leave the analogies to me.

It's not that precise of an analogy! I just don't see how the folks who want to buy AU are impacted at all by 3.5. It clearly doesn't offer them the same experience AU does -- it really just offers a modest "improvement" on the existing PHB experience.

 

[Desdichado]

I should perhaps be clear -- I don't have any agenda to promote here. I'm equally lukewarm towards both AU and 3.5. I'll probably get both sometime in the next few months, but I'm not really excited about either, and I doubt I'll use either very much in the immediate future. I'm using d20 Modern mixed with d20 Call of Cthulhu and Mutants and Masterminds for d20 gaming these days, and we're even thinking of moving to GURPS as an alternate system.

But I still don't see how the two of those compete head to head. Apparently Monte agrees with me; he dismisses the notion that the 3.5 PHB makes his life any harder with AU.

 

[Utrecht]

But I still don't see how the two of those compete head to head. Apparently Monte agrees with me; he dismisses the notion that the 3.5 PHB makes his life any harder with AU.

I think that one thing that we (and based off of your comments from Monte) and Monte forget is that we as EN World are much more educated than the average D & D consumer - I agree that there is little chance the an EN World savey customer would confuse AU with 3.5.

However, take this scenario - Average Jill walks into FLGS and sees AU - which is sold and MARKETED as a Variant PHB and the 3.5 PHB. There is a very realy possability that that person could walk out with AU.

Again, there is the very strong potential for conflict of interest here - the Marketing of the books ensures that (again there may be nothing intentional) but given this - Monte's words need to be taken with a grain of salt.

Edit for clarity.

 

[Lamoni]

I think that the reason for all these new 3.5 edition is bad/good threads is because we are all frustrated that we don't have our own copy yet. We all set aside all this time to read it when it was delivered, but since most places like walmart.com and amazon.com delayed shipping, we just have to spend the time on these trolls instead. To those who didn't pre-order the books, maybe you set aside time to read the SRD.

I would like to add my two cents... All you who buy the 3.5 edition are stupid idiots! And those who like edition 3.0 and don't want to change to the awesome 3.5 rules... how dumb can you be?

Really, this all sounds ridiculous. I am one of those stupid idiots because I have pre-ordered the 3.5 PHB. But who really cares?

I would like to see a change back to meaningful threads. Like the ones that we will all see once we all have 3.5 edition in our hands. Then we will no longer try criticizing others for buying or not buying the book, but can discuss how to best convert players, or some optional house rules, etc. I just hope that when that time comes people won't always interject saying "Why even bother, you shouldn't have even bought those dumb books"

I have been very pleased by the level of respect that most threads show, but right now it seems to be going downhill. I just hope that it picks up again to where it used to be soon.

I like advice when it is asked for... or if you provide new information that others might like. But trying to convince others to change their plans based on your own whims is stupid. Maybe I'll start a thread telling everyone that they should use miniatures. People play based on their own preferences. If you have an issue with something, try convincing your playing group... not every other playing group.

 

[Desdichado]

No. You've been too busy simply stating that I'm wrong. Point in case; "not a shred of truth", "flat out wrong".

Actually, I've been busy pointing out that Monte left independently of the layoffs -- you claim that he's impacted by them but haven't explained how, and that the AU and PHB fundamentally reach out to different market segments. You've ignored both of these points despite the fact that I've made them at least three times in this thread trying to solicit some type of ...anything... from you. And yet, still nothing. Even now, when you're responding to the fact that I'm calling you on your lack of meaningful response, you fail to provide a meaningful response.

That's because I feel my stance is perfectly justified. Seriously.

I'm sure you do. I'm curious what you think that justification is. You haven't cared to share.

I _did_ want to discuss this, but not with you anymore. You just put me off with your manner.

If you did want to discuss it, you've certainly had plenty of opportunity that you've failed to respond to. It's a bit disingenious of you to now say you're put off by my attitude, so you still won't discuss it.

 

[Desdichado]

I think that one thing that we (and based off of your comments from Monte) and Monte forget is that we as EN World are much more educated than the average D & D consumer - I agree that there is little chance the an EN World savey customer would confuse AU with 3.5.

However, take this scenario - Average Jill walks into FLGS and sees AU - which is sold and MARKETED as a Variant PHB and the 3.5 PHB. There is a very realy possability that that person could walk out with AU.

Again, there is the very strong potential for conflict of interest here - the Marketing of the books ensures that (again there may be nothing intentional) but given this - Monte's words need to be taken with a grain of salt.

I don't forget that at all, quite frankly I just find your example ludicrous. If Monte is worried about losing the occasional accidental sale of someone too ignorant to seperate the PHB from AU, then he's excessively neurotic. Such a hypothetical individual isn't likely to realise the difference between 3e and 3.5e either, for that matter.

 

[Tom Cashel]

Oh, come on already!

Sean Kreynolds (hi Sean!) is probably saying that Monte left WotC because he suspected he might be fired. But he left instead. With the layoffs, the door was effectively slammed behind him.

Joshua Dyal is saying that Monte quitting and the subsequent layoffs have nothing to do with each other. Monte just left WotC, that's it.

The truth is that neither of you know for sure, and you're both full of it (conjecture, that is)...or perhaps you are close personal friends with Monte Cook? Unless this is the case, please stop this ridiculous back-and-forth and deal with the important job of lashing out at the original poster's blatant act of trollery.

'Kay?

 

[Piratecat]

This thread started poorly, and the hostile karma continues to stalk its every.. what? I'm not DMing? Oh, sorry for the florid prose.

But I do think I'm going to close it, because it's starting to degenerate into bickering. If you have a valid point about the new rules, please post it in another 3.5 thread. If you want to snipe at someone who disagrees with you, then go pat a cat or something.

But not me; I'm just not that kind of administrator.

Thread closed. As always, email me if you want to discuss it.

 

[Utrecht]

Joshua,

It appears that my point is getting lost in the noise.

What I am stating is that Monte's opinions on the PHB need to be taking with a grain of salt (how big of a grain is dependent on how big of a bias one thinks he has). The fact of the matter is that his company is marketing an alternative PHB. Thus any opinions he makes about the official PHB are suspect.

So when a poster bases his/her entire post on "Monte says" That poster needs to realize that their entire premise is on shaky ground.