Scaling Adventures in 3.5e

[MerricB]

One of the best things about 3E, in my opinion, is the ability to advance monsters - by adding hit dice, class levels and so forth.

The same applies to challenges like traps, thanks to the handy guidelines in the 3.5e DMG.

Thus, I'm currently engaged in the conversion of Torrents of Dread (Dungeon #114) for my 9th level party, increasing the challenge ratings of most of the encounters by about 3. (The module is written for 6th level characters).

Now, I probably enjoy this task a lot more than other DMs, but I'm sure I'm not alone.

This relates to what I think of the Challenge Rating/Encounter Level system of 3.5e: I think it's good. Not always accurate, no. However, it's a lot better than the absolute lack of guidelines in previous editions! So, if the books suggest that an encounter is EL 10, I'm inclined to believe them.

Even if they're somewhat inaccurate, it's unlikely to be too much (by which I mean an EL 10 is actually 15...) - and given that there are plenty of monsters and situations that I'm unfamiliar with, having some guidelines is much better than none at all!

(That said, I'm still unsure of the accuracy of CRs for high-level magical traps, but anyway...)

So, given that I trust (mostly) CRs and ELs, it makes scaling adventures something that I can easily judge, even though it can be a little time-consuming. However, it's something that I enjoy - an Advanced Elamosaurus with 262 hit points will be fun to run!

Incidentally, if you haven't examined the advancing monsters section of the MM 3.5e, I advise you do so; it's quite interesting to see the suggestions and guidelines, especially on judging the new Challenge Ratings of the monsters!

Cheers!

 

[TimSmith]

I tend to agree with you. One thing that I do find a little hard to stomach, though, is the idea of, say, a 15th level kobold fighter. For a start it goes against the basic world view of what a kobold should be and for another it makes it very difficult for the players to make a good choice about fight or flight responses to meeting said kobold.

I personally would prefer some mechanic for limiting advancement of creatures to a maximum multiple of their original power level. (So, kobolds couldn't become as dangerous as bugbears could, given maximum opportunities for advancement).

Any thoughts on this?

 

[MerricB]

Any thoughts on this?

It's tricky. At that stage (15th level kobolds! eek!) I start applying templates (fiendish, etc) so that the kobold is no longer quite natural.

One of the things about 3e is that it removes the strict limitations that previous editions had on humanoid advancement and instead leaves it up to the DM.

So, go with what you think is right!

Of course, if you limit a kobold, you might be tempted to limit the PC races as well, and at that point the problems really start to kick in - I like to judge it case by case.

Cheers!

 

[Turjan]

I tend to agree with you. One thing that I do find a little hard to stomach, though, is the idea of, say, a 15th level kobold fighter. For a start it goes against the basic world view of what a kobold should be and for another it makes it very difficult for the players to make a good choice about fight or flight responses to meeting said kobold.

I personally would prefer some mechanic for limiting advancement of creatures to a maximum multiple of their original power level. (So, kobolds couldn't become as dangerous as bugbears could, given maximum opportunities for advancement).

Any thoughts on this?

Actually, I like it very much that a kobold can reach 15th level. This should not be too common, but it should not be excluded by the rules, either. I suppose it's now the task of the DM to somehow make clear to the players that there's something special about this kobold. A good description of the gear that kobold wears should be enough to warn them .

 

[Victim]

I tend to agree with you. One thing that I do find a little hard to stomach, though, is the idea of, say, a 15th level human fighter. For a start it goes against the basic world view of what a human should be and for another it makes it very difficult for the monsters to make a good choice about fight or flight responses to meeting said human.

I personally would prefer some mechanic for limiting advancement of creatures to a maximum multiple of their original power level. (So, humans couldn't become as dangerous as bugbears could, given maximum opportunities for advancement).

Any thoughts on this?

I corrected your post.

 

[Voadam]

Any thoughts on this?

No harder to stomach than a 15th level halfling fighter. Or barbarian.

Man do I hate Halflings.

I actually like that when you see an orc you don't know whether he has 1 HD or 20. And that even without supernatural templates. Returns some of the thrill of the unknown to the game even when you hit the oldest cliches in the game.

So is that orc guarding the pie a 1 HD warrior or a 20th level barbarian?

 

[wingsandsword]

I personally would prefer some mechanic for limiting advancement of creatures to a maximum multiple of their original power level. (So, kobolds couldn't become as dangerous as bugbears could, given maximum opportunities for advancement).

Any thoughts on this?

I don't like it. How many levels can Humans get, what about Elves, or Goblins? What about ECL'ed PC races like Aasimar? It sounds like a step back to Racial Level Limits, one thing gratefully dumped in 3e. If Humans and Half-Orcs can go up unlimited levels because they are "PC" races, what really makes them so special from Kobolds, Orcs and Goblins other than they are in the "Races" chapter of the PHB?

It also steps on DM"s who are running high or epic-level games by removing options, like the 20th level Kobold Cleric who's the high priest of his faith and leading thousands of his kin on a holy war against the humans, knock him down to 9th level because Kobolds can't go over 9th and it gets a little harder to scale for high-level parties.

Do your PC's have similar fight-or-flight reactions to seeing a person in a dungeon? A dirty, scrawny kobold in rags with a rusty spear is one thing, a well-groomed kobold in fitted armor, standing proudly with a confident gleam in his eye and holding pair of gleaming short swords is another.

 

[TimSmith]

It's tricky. At that stage (15th level kobolds! eek!) I start applying templates (fiendish, etc) so that the kobold is no longer quite natural.

That could work for me!

So, go with what you think is right!

Well, sure. As you probably can tell, I wouldn't use "Uber-kobold, Defender of all that is Scaly" if I was DM'ing, but it just strikes me as a way that the advancement system can come up with (arguably) strange concepts that might strain credulity.

 

[MerricB]

Well, sure. As you probably can tell, I wouldn't use "Uber-kobold, Defender of all that is Scaly" if I was DM'ing, but it just strikes me as a way that the advancement system can come up with (arguably) strange concepts that might strain credulity.

Heh. That's the power and the drawback of 3e - it gives you a lot of power to represent many fantasy concepts within the D&D framework, but the concepts might just not be worth representing...



Cheers!

 

[TimSmith]

I corrected your post.

Ho ho- as a fencer, I have to call out "touche"

I have just seen a few later posts-and will now bow down and acknowledge that my gut feelings are based on nothing more than a baseless prejudice against the downtrodden and truly deserving under races of the D&D world.

Everything you guys say makes sense and of course its up to everyone how they run their individual game.

My perspective (for my personal world view) is that certain societies encourage, support, and provide opportunities for more learning and development (ie levels..) than others. PC races tend to live in more cosmopolitan societies with many more varied experiences available to them. They have perhaps a greater chance of surviving than, say, savage humanoids who live in brutal societies which are constantly being decimated by the "civilized" races as well as each other (and therefore less chance of actually being around by the time they have the chance to level up). One could perhaps argue that the opportunities to specialise in class level skills is a luxury only available to those whose societies have specialism of labour (for example, to put food on the table for them whilst they do their thing), which is somewhat analagous to the real world. So, I have absolutely no problem with high level Drow for example.

Of course, if I was a player in a game where Kobolds were, say, the residents of a decaying but ancient empire of city states where they had a relatively stable civilisation, that would work for me. Or, to cite an example I saw recently on these boards, an orc society modelled on Spartan lines, with goblin helots to be their slaves.