Scaling Adventures in 3.5e

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Just remember that you can´t scale an adventure indefinitely - at some point, the abilities of characters are to great to use the same plot. An adventure that mostly consists on wilderness encounters because the characters first have to travel to their real destination doesn´t work once the party has access to Teleport or Wind Walk.

And one level 15 Kobold Barbarian is fine.
But a horde of them (or even human/orc ones) is not, unless you are visiting the place where the Kobold Barbarians go after they died to fight for the rest of their eternal afterlives...

I remember an NWN module that used such a strange idea to create an epic level adventure - you were transported to a world where young children were able to throw fireballs and every farmer could cast control weather... It simply didn´t work for me - if they all were demons on a hell dimension, I could have stomached it. But this way, it was to ridicilous...

 

[diaglo]

Because kobolds is comic relief, and comic relief no must get super powers, or they turn into Jar Jar Binks.

or into a Falstaff.

in which case Hal will have you hung when he becomes King and invades the Frogs.

 

[Plane Sailing]

I tend to agree with you. One thing that I do find a little hard to stomach, though, is the idea of, say, a 15th level kobold fighter.

I think the key issue is that it is fully up to the DM to what extent he wants to advance his creatures. For those DM's that are happy with a 15th level kobold, there he is. For those who are not it never comes up as an issue.

The 3e system is at least open to either possibility, something that couldn't be said of earlier editions without recourse to the reincarnation spell (I had an 11th level monk who was reincarnated as a kobold once)

Cheers

 

[James Jacobs]

Consider this advanced monster:

Advanced Tendriculos: CR 9; gargantuan plant; HD 17d8+170; hp 246; Init +3; Spd 20 ft; AC 18, touch 5, flat-footed 18; BAB +12; Grp +37; Atk +21 melee (3d8+13, bite); Full Atk: +21 melee (3d8+13, bite) and +16/+16 melee (1d8+6, 2 tendrils); Space/Reach: 20'/20'; SA: Improved Grab, paralysis, swallow whole; SQ low-light vision, plant traits, regeneration 10; AL N; SV Fort +19, Ref +4, Will +7; Str 36; Dex 9; Con 28, Int 3, Wis 8, Cha 3.

Monsters that rely on grapple-type attacks can get out of hand really quickly when you advance their Hit Dice and (especailly) their size. Add to that a LOT more hit points and that regeneration and AIEEEE! This critter almost seems more like a CR 11 as a result, or maybe even 12. Then again, it's pretty weak in the ranged attack department... Figuring CRs is tricksy business, that's for sure!

As for 15th-level kobolds... I'm all for them! Of course, I also should admit they're my favorite of the non-PHB humanoid races... but still. Not much works better than a 15th-level kobold sorcerer for keeping the PCs on their toes.

ANYway, I'm looking forward to seeing how the biggie-sized "Torrents of Dread" works out, Merric. You gonna hook us up with a post-game damage report?

 

[MerricB]

Monsters that rely on grapple-type attacks can get out of hand really quickly when you advance their Hit Dice and (especailly) their size. Add to that a LOT more hit points and that regeneration and AIEEEE! This critter almost seems more like a CR 11 as a result, or maybe even 12. Then again, it's pretty weak in the ranged attack department... Figuring CRs is tricksy business, that's for sure!

It's comparable to the CR 12 Purple Worm... the Paralysing gullet makes it really deadly.

I've been lowering its stats a bit. (I want some PCs to survive!)

ANYway, I'm looking forward to seeing how the biggie-sized "Torrents of Dread" works out, Merric. You gonna hook us up with a post-game damage report?

I certainly will, James! I'll post it both here and on the Dungeon (Paizo) boards.

Cheers!

 

[WingOver]

I personally would prefer some mechanic for limiting advancement of creatures to a maximum multiple of their original power level. (So, kobolds couldn't become as dangerous as bugbears could, given maximum opportunities for advancement).

Any thoughts on this?

I don't think this was mentioned but there is a mechanic that limits creature advancement by HD which makes sense to me.

I like the fact that class advancement is unrestricted because it puts players and their adversaries, be them kobolds or whatever, on a level playing field mechanically. That makes things more interesting.

But as for HD advancement, I can see there being physical limits on how big/powerful a creature can grow. I'm very satisified with how this worked out in 3ed.

 

[MerricB]

Just a note:

Further discussions on scaling Torrents of Dread (including feedback from the author) can be found here:
http://www.paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/dungeon/generalDiscussion/torrentsOfDreadDungeon114Spoilers

What happened when I ran the adventure, can be found here:
http://www.3rdedition.org/merricb/greyhawk/greyhawk.htm

Cheers!

 

[MonsterMash]

Back on topic

I do like the CR and EL systems in 3e even though they are not that accurate at higher levels (I do think they work better with low levels with less options possible) and being able to advance monsters, though we could always have monsters with class levels in OD&D, but racial limits were there even for PCs.