Scaling Adventures in 3.5e

[Sunderstone]

I agree with both Tim and Merric on the 15th lvl Kobold thing. A 15th lvl Kobold is a little hard to stomach outside of a one time shock factor to scare your players.
Merric pointed out using a Fiendish template which is an excellent idea, as long as it's used sparingly.
Tim's society thing will also work quite well in certain cases. For example in the old Dragon Mountain box you could have the Red Dragon easily help a Kobold to higher levels and become the Dragon's trusted henchman.

Thanks to both of you, I may use this from time to time in a possible sub-plot in my campaign.

 

[Liolel]

On the 15th level kobold issue, I agree with others that it shouldn't be something you just walk into a room in a dungeon and find. But a 15th level kobold should be possible, you just need to put some thought into why. Maybe its a cleric given this great power to be the champion of the god of kobolds (who's name I can't remember off hand). Maybe it was simply exceptional from birth and far above other kobolds from the very start (meaning the kobold equivilant of a pc that got very good statistic rolls). You could really think of dozens of story reasons why there might be a 15th level kobold. The question a high level monster poses should not be whether to allow it, but how it got to such a power.

 

[Sunderstone]

Maybe its a cleric given this great power to be the champion of the god of kobolds (who's name I can't remember off hand).

Might it have been Kurtulmak or something...

 

[Liolel]

Might it have been Kurtulmak or something...

Yes thats right, it was Kurtulmak and after seeing the name I can see why I have trouble remembering it.

 

[DragonLancer]

If you can envision a 15th level human or halfling, why can't you do the same for a kobold?

I see no problem with it.

 

[jeffh]

I tend to agree with you. One thing that I do find a little hard to stomach, though, is the idea of, say, a 15th level kobold fighter. For a start it goes against the basic world view of what a kobold should be and for another it makes it very difficult for the players to make a good choice about fight or flight responses to meeting said kobold.

I personally would prefer some mechanic for limiting advancement of creatures to a maximum multiple of their original power level. (So, kobolds couldn't become as dangerous as bugbears could, given maximum opportunities for advancement).

Any thoughts on this?

I'm of the opinion that this is only because you spent significant time getting used to previous editions. For someone who had only ever played 3E, I submit that the above would look like complete nonsense - their response would be "why would that be any harder for a kobold than for a human?".

To put it a different way, the new way makes a gameworld that makes intutive sense, much moreso than the old. It only seems the other way around because your intuitions formed while playing the old rules - but ask someone who lacks those preconcieved ideas which system makes more sense, and I guarantee you they'll pick 3E.

 

[MerricB]

Good points there, Jeff.

3e really allows you to create your own limitations, rather than imposing them on you (and more importantly, building them into the balance of the game so that changing them is not trivial!)

Cheers!

 

[hong]

I'm of the opinion that this is only because you spent significant time getting used to previous editions. For someone who had only ever played 3E, I submit that the above would look like complete nonsense - their response would be "why would that be any harder for a kobold than for a human?".

Because kobolds is comic relief, and comic relief no must get super powers, or they turn into Jar Jar Binks.

 

[TimSmith]

I'm of the opinion that this is only because you spent significant time getting used to previous editions. For someone who had only ever played 3E, I submit that the above would look like complete nonsense - their response would be "why would that be any harder for a kobold than for a human?".

To put it a different way, the new way makes a gameworld that makes intutive sense, much moreso than the old. It only seems the other way around because your intuitions formed while playing the old rules - but ask someone who lacks those preconcieved ideas which system makes more sense, and I guarantee you they'll pick 3E.

I think you are probably right- that's what I meant in my later post about being prejudiced against the "lesser" races of D&D.

As I said, if there is a clever reason why a particularly heroic kobold rose to great power, then that wouldn't jar with me anyway- BUT I still think they would be amazingly exceptional individuals. For me that would be MORE exceptional than PC races for reasons I've already stated. Now, if we were using a different model for kobold society and culture than that implied by both old and new rules, my gut feelings on it would change.

Having participated in this thread, I agree that we don't need any mechanic to limit level advancement for the lowly kobold (or human ) because it allows versatility to the DM to create the best story. However, as with any tool, it needs using with care. I like the idea of the Kobold Messiah of Kurtulmak, for example, but random 15th lvl kobold wandering in the dungeon would be a different kettle of lizards!

I'd just like to apologise to Merric, because I think i sort of "thread-jacked" his thread. He was talking about quite a bit more than just level advancement for monsters and the discussion has really focussed on that. Hope you haven't minded too much, mate?

 

[MerricB]

I don't mind too much...

In any case, I finished my conversion of Torrents of Dread for a 9th level party (was 6th level) today.

I'm not so sure how accurate the CRs are now... I guess I'll find out (and see if my Killer DM tag can be expanded upon).

Consider this advanced monster:

Advanced Tendriculos: CR 9; gargantuan plant; HD 17d8+170; hp 246; Init +3; Spd 20 ft; AC 18, touch 5, flat-footed 18; BAB +12; Grp +37; Atk +21 melee (3d8+13, bite); Full Atk: +21 melee (3d8+13, bite) and +16/+16 melee (1d8+6, 2 tendrils); Space/Reach: 20'/20'; SA: Improved Grab, paralysis, swallow whole; SQ low-light vision, plant traits, regeneration 10; AL N; SV Fort +19, Ref +4, Will +7; Str 36; Dex 9; Con 28, Int 3, Wis 8, Cha 3.
* Skills: Hide +9; Listen +3; Move Silently +1; Spot +3; Feats: Alertness, Improved Initiative, Improved Toughness, Iron Will, Power Attack, Stealthy.

Improved Grab (Ex): If it hits a creature one size smaller than itself with a bite attack, can start grapple as a free action without provoking an AoO. If it wins, it grabs the opponent and can try to swallow next round.

Can also start with a successful tendril attack - a successful grapple allows (as a free action) transfer to the maw, automatically dealing bite damage.

Swallow Whole/Paralysis (Ex): It can swallow a grabbed opponent by making a successful grapple check. Once inside, the opponent must succeed on a DC 27 Fortitude save or be paralysed for 3d6 rounds; each round the opponent takes 2d6 acid damage and must save again. A non-paralysed opponent can climb out of the monster with a successful grapple check - this returns it to the maw, where another grapple check must be made to escape. A light piercing or slashing weapon can also cut the character out with 25 points of damage (AC 14).

Regeneration (Ex): Bludgeoning weapons and acid deal normal damage to a tendriculos.

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Hmm - too powerful for CR 9? Possibly. There's a wide variation in powers for each Challenge Rating (and they bleed into one another).

Cheers!