Scaling the Caster Classes Back

[Branduil]

And there is even more basis for a spell caster who is both...born with a spark, refined through learning.

Thats why I dislike all the "origin" stuff in the class descreptions. Its also the only gripe I have with the Magister in Arcana Evolved...it fits what I want but still has the descreption and flavour as a "learned mage."

I think the player should decide the "origin" of his characters powers, without encumbrance.

Hmm, I wonder if Sorcerer/Wizard will be a feasibly multiclass in 4e.

 

[RPG_Tweaker]

No one has delusions of mediocrity.

Well... some people do.

 

[Treebore]

Yes. It loses the "it's not broken if the fighter can't do it" philosophy.

Whereas I am a fan of the "it's not broken so long as the fighter can do it" philosophy.

then I guess you love "Iron Heroes".

 

[Merlion]

Well, the good news is if all this is true I'll save a lot of money by not buying 4E.

When everyone is supposed to be equal to the guy who manipulates the forces of the universe, who commands other planar creatures, dominates minds, summons minions, travels the planes, and they themselves are not Wizards the game loses something.

Something core, something critical.

Plus it loses me as a fan.


I gotta quit reading all these threads, getting me way to depressed about the possibilities of 4E.

Its pretty easy to understand. Most people want all the classes to be balanced with each other in combat, and when they say combat, they mean "defeat enemies by force", not necessarily in armed combat.

And it does not mean the Wizard losing his powers, or everyone else gaining similar powers. The Wizard is always going to be able to do more things than anyone else (except maybe the Cleric) by his nature.

The wizard is going to GAIN flexibility in 4e. Chances are, the balancing within combat will be achieved by fighter types gaining a wider, more effective range of fighter-type abilities and options, especially at high levels. So that the Wizard can keep his powers, without rendering everyone else (except the Cleric) irrelevent at high levels.

The only class I see getting a big reduction in abilities is, hopefully, the Cleric.

 

[Treebore]

Its pretty easy to understand. Most people want all the classes to be balanced with each other in combat, and when they say combat, they mean "defeat enemies by force", not necessarily in armed combat.

And it does not mean the Wizard losing his powers, or everyone else gaining similar powers. The Wizard is always going to be able to do more things than anyone else (except maybe the Cleric) by his nature.

The wizard is going to GAIN flexibility in 4e. Chances are, the balancing within combat will be achieved by fighter types gaining a wider, more effective range of fighter-type abilities and options, especially at high levels. So that the Wizard can keep his powers, without rendering everyone else (except the Cleric) irrelevent at high levels.

The only class I see getting a big reduction in abilities is, hopefully, the Cleric.

See, I've played, and DMed dozens of game sessions, probably even hyndreds of game sessions, at high level. No one was irrelevant. The whole "team" was needed or they would never have beaten the opponents they had.

The only thing extra cool about mages, and cleric types, was they could do a ton of things outside of combat. Fighters can't. Unless you have a player who is excited about his fighter type making his latest suit fo armor, or weapon. Or something similiarly mundane. Which only became cool when the spellcaster used them as their craftsmen for the next magic weapon or armor they wanted to make.

Plus, in 3E, my two experiences with going EPic level, especially beyond 30th level, is that the mage became seriously irrelevant. It seemed everything had immunities and super high resistances out the wazoo. The only solid contribution wizards made was to buff up the party a little bit. Unless they got lucky and cast the one energy type, or one of the handful of other spells, the creature wasn't immune or highly resistant to.

It was the fighters who rocked and rolled in the Epic levels. The wizard became practically obsolete.

I hope your right about the way its going to come together in 4E.

 

[Merlion]

See, I've played, and DMed dozens of game sessions, probably even hyndreds of game sessions, at high level. No one was irrelevant. The whole "team" was needed or they would never have beaten the opponents they had.

The only thing extra cool about mages, and cleric types, was they could do a ton of things outside of combat. Fighters can't. Unless you have a player who is excited about his fighter type making his latest suit fo armor, or weapon. Or something similiarly mundane. Which only became cool when the spellcaster used them as their craftsmen for the next magic weapon or armor they wanted to make.

Plus, in 3E, my two experiences with going EPic level, especially beyond 30th level, is that the mage became seriously irrelevant. It seemed everything had immunities and super high resistances out the wazoo. The only solid contribution wizards made was to buff up the party a little bit. Unless they got lucky and cast the one energy type, or one of the handful of other spells, the creature wasn't immune or highly resistant to.

It was the fighters who rocked and rolled in the Epic levels. The wizard became practically obsolete.

I hope your right about the way its going to come together in 4E.

Ok two things.

One, I dont really figure "epic" into my thinking, as the epic rules are....strange and dont really fit well, to me, with the rest of the game.

two, I am not sure if I understand...am I correct that your fear is that casters will be overly "nerfed" in 4e?

 

[Treebore]

Ok two things.

One, I dont really figure "epic" into my thinking, as the epic rules are....strange and dont really fit well, to me, with the rest of the game.

two, I am not sure if I understand...am I correct that your fear is that casters will be overly "nerfed" in 4e?

I agree about the Epic rules. They are totally screwed up. I started rewriting them to where I thought it would actually work. After ten pages I decided I needed to get paid to do this kind of work.

As for two, yeah, pretty much. Apparently I am too old school, because just nerfing the spells, and all the nonsense about polymorph, and now claiming Ehterealness and Scrying are "problems", well, its just hard for me to feel confident things are going to be done to my liking.

At least I don't have to worry about the "What am I going to do if 4E sucks?" question. Already have that worked out.

 

[Merlion]

I agree about the Epic rules. They are totally screwed up. I started rewriting them to where I thought it would actually work. After ten pages I decided I needed to get paid to do this kind of work.

As for two, yeah, pretty much. Apparently I am too old school, because just nerfing the spells, and all the nonsense about polymorph, and now claiming Ehterealness and Scrying are "problems", well, its just hard for me to feel confident things are going to be done to my liking.
.

Ok thats what I thought. So what I said earlier stands. Despite the terminology they are using, from what tiny peeks we have recieved of what they are actually doing mechanically, I think Wizards will be improved, overall rather than nerfed. I mean I'm sure there will be negative wizard changes that I dont like, but by and large I think the changes will be good ones, and the Wizard will maintain the abilities we expect, even if in different ways.

A side note...if you havent, definitely check out Monte Cook's Arcana Evolved. Don't pay attention to the setting or races...but the magic system and the Magister class are very nice. He has a few odd things in place to where I would lighten it up a little as far as which spells are in which catagories, to give spellcasters broader choices not limited as much for flavour reasons, but on the basic level the Magister is what one would really want in a mage class.

 

[Treebore]

Yes, I have Arcana Evolved. I agree the magic system looks very enticing. Just haven't gotten around to using it. Having to much fun with whats going on now.

 

[ptolemy18]

From my perspective, I have always felt that in combat, fighter types should be BETTER than wizards. Combat is all a fighter type does, but a wizard can alter the weather, control minds, divine the future, curse your kinsmen, summon an army to his beck and call, create a castle out of thin air, etc etc. Wizards get so many cool things they can do out of combat, why should they be equal to the fighter in combat, when combat is all the fighter does?

This is a very good point. All things being equal, I don't mind wizards' combat abilities being nerfed slightly and fighters' combat abilities going up. I'm more concerned about wizards retaining their iconic high-power abilities that don't necessarily directly effect the combat field. If a wizard is only able to Polymorph a bound & helpless opponent into a frog, fine -- they still have the ability to Polymorph an opponent into a frog, and maybe keep them in a cage or something, that's the important part in the end, because that's kind of stuff wizards are made of. Along with the other stuff you mention -- the divinations, the enchantment and mind control, the illusions, the creating things and summoning and controlling plants and animals (whoops, now I'm slipping into druids), the flying and teleporting... really, if the wizard can do all this, but can't do quite as many damage dice per round in combat, that's fine.

Anyway, that's fine. But maybe I'm just being pessimistic, but my fear is that 4E is shaping up to be so combat-centric... based on all the limited rumors and so forth, of course... is that in the end, wizards' powers will in fact be centered mostly around combat (as will all characters' powers) and they will lose all the weird and high-end powers which require DM adjudication but don't necessarily directly deal damage on the combat grid. I'm basically worried that, in 4E, every class except fighters is going to simply become a sucky, half-assed fighter with a few tricks. i.e. "The fighter strikes with his sword every round and can use a Maneuver every encounter... the wizard blasts with his mage strike every round and can use a Fireball every encounter." Sounds... uh... uninspiring. @_@