Scent, Spot, Listen, Blindsight....as skill checks?

[Nail]

Point taken.

Sneak skill.

But, uh....

I Aware the sneaking rogue.......

 

[Nail]

..... what if with a positive Awareness check the DM then identified which direction you sensed something? ....(snip).... A second successful Awareness check (taken with an active Move Action like Core rules mandate for retrying Spot or Listen, it's not a passive reactive free action type check now) actually pinpoints their square.

That looks pretty good.....it certainly lends itself well to how movies protray it......how useful would this be, though, game mechanics-wise? Hmmmmm.....

....Also, if both Awareness & Spot could be used to sense an opponent, I'd rather allow the creature to choose which one they want to use and then give them a flat +4 to represent bringing their other senses to bear, very much like Nifft described above.

That's reasonable, and quick (Spot helping Awareness), though I might give it a +2 instead. Either way, this circumstance bonus would mimic the fact that things within 40ft are easier to notice ("negates" range penalty). Does Awareness help Spot in the same manner?

 

[DrSpunj]

I Aware the sneaking rogue.......

Well, I said Action Skills should get verbs. Awareness, as you've defined it and I'm imagining it, is both passive and active. In its active mode it becomes closer to try and say "I Perceive...", which is why others (myself included) have offered up Perception instead of Awareness (it's used in Werewolf). In its passive mode, Awareness translates into something closer to "You Notice...". Either way, you're right, the above statement doesn't fit. Touche´!

Okay, since we've made a fair bit of progress on this, here's an attempt to sum up:

Spot is now used for any Visual sense as well as those abilities that give enough detail to perceive everything your opponent is doing "as if" you could see them. To my knowledge only Blindsight fits this description.

Awareness now encompasses every other way you could potentially sense something, including but not limited to Hearing, Scent, Blindsense, Tremorsense...anything else? With one successful check you get the precise direction you noticed something. If your quarry doesn't move, you both make a second check to potentially uncover the exact square. (I'm advocating a bonus on the second Awareness roll since you know kind of where they are.)

Both get a -1 per 10' circumstance modifier. If either skill could be used in an opposed roll the creature can choose which one to use and gets a bonus from the other one.

Now, the biggest part of what's left is being specific about bonuses and whatnot. How much of a bonus if both Spot & Awareness can be used? How much of a bonus if a creature could use Awareness twice (like a Bat's Listen and Blindsense)?

Nifft originally proposed a +4 for each sense beyond the first that could be brought to bear. I remember at the time thinking +4 seemed a bit much, but I'm not so sure it is after more consideration. Under Core that same Bat would've gotten both a Listen check & a Spot check and would've automatically determined anything within 20'. Since we're keeping two skills in this proposal (Spot & Awareness instead of Spot & Listen) Animals aren't picking up any "extra" skill points, and they're losing their "automaticness", though they are benefiting IMO from an extended range on their special senses.

All in all I think I'm happy with a flat +4 across the board. To break it down, a Bat could:

• Under Core make a Spot check, a Listen check and automatically sense anything within 20', or
• Under this proposal make a single skill check, either Spot or Awareness, with a +4 for the other one, a +4 because Listen & Blindsense are both involved, but with a -1 per 10' distance penalty

Thoughts?

DrSpunj

 

[Nifft]

All in all I think I'm happy with a flat +4 across the board. To break it down, under Core a Bat could:

• Under Core make a Spot check, a Listen check and automatically sense anything within 20', or
• Under this proposal make a single skill check, either Spot or Awareness, with a +4 for the other one, a +4 because Listen & Blindsense are both involved, but with a -1 per 10' distance penalty

I certainly approve!

-- N

 

[Tessarael]

I agree that's one way to do it....possibly even a better way. But I think it's probably enough (close enough to "reasonable") to say that these other senses can find the grid square you are in. They cannot know what you are doing, however, so they still might lose Dex bonus to AC, etc....and you would still be "hidden", potentially.

Ok. So you still have total concealment from an awareness sense, but they can determine your grid square. Area spells can target you fine, but spells requiring line of sight won't work (no valid target to be seen).

Personally, I'd be inclined to give a penalty to awareness/sense checks to determine your specific square. That is still very useful information for a spellcaster to target you. Do you want a Wizard with a Weasel familiar (with Scent) to be able to Lightning Bolt the Rogue that the Weasel can smell? Fireball sounds entirely reasonable - to cover enough area to probably get the Rogue, but other more direct (e.g. line, or targesting a square) spells should have tactical problems. The other thing to do is give out vague or old information (the Rogue's smell came from here, but where is he now?).

3.5 Monster Manual rules for Scent:
- creature can detect opponents within 30' by smell (60' upwind, 15' downwind)
- exact location is not revealed
- a move action notes the direction of the scent
- can pinpoint the source when within 5'

I'd argue that hearing and other awareness senses are fairly similar in that regard. You'll get the direction, but the source square only when close.

Just my thoughts ...

 

[Nail]

Lame, but true: Couldn't get to this before lunch.

 

[Nail]

....In its passive mode, Awareness translates into something closer to "You Notice...". Either way, you're right, the above statement doesn't fit. Touche´!

Perhaps it should be the "Notice" skill. That's how we're apt to use it in common language, anyway. I kinda like it: Notice and Spot.

Next time I get a dog, I'm naming it "notice".

All in all I think I'm happy with a flat +4 across the board. To break it down, a Bat could:

• Under Core make a Spot check, a Listen check and automatically sense anything within 20', or
• Under this proposal make a single skill check, either Spot or Awareness, with a +4 for the other one, a +4 because Listen & Blindsense are both involved, but with a -1 per 10' distance penalty

Thoughts?

This looks okay....mostly. I'm not sure about all the potential modifiers we'd have to add "depending on circumstance"; that goes against the K.I.S.S. philosophy. But still......

I'll need to "let this sit", and come back to it after I've been away for a while.

I'm off for the weekend!

 

[Nail]

I''ve run out of time today to work on this. Here's part of what I have:

(Keep in mind we're modifying Spot, replacing Listen with Notice, and combining Move Silently and Hide with Sneak.)
******************************
SPOT (WIS)
Check: The Spot skill represents seeing, recognizing, and being able to react normally to creatures or objects. In order to use this skill, you must be able to “see” the subject, either with normal vision, darkvision, or blindsight. (Note: darkvision and blindsight typically have very short effective ranges, but negate some forms of concealment or cover.) A Spot check is only necessary if the subject is hidden or difficult to see, if the subject is disguised in some way, or at the beginning of encounters.

• When a creature is hidden or difficult to see, you roll either a Spot or a Notice check, and that roll is opposed by the Sneak check of the hidden creature. If the subject is not intentionally Sneaking, its Sneak check is 0, modified by circumstance (see the Sneak skill description).
• Spot is also used to detect someone in disguise (see the Disguise skill), and to read lips when you can’t hear or understand what someone is saying.
• Either Spot or Notice checks may be called for to determine the distance at which an encounter begins.

Read Lips: (snipped, as SRD)

All Spot checks are penalized by distance (-1 per 10 feet) or if the character making the Spot check is distracted (not concentrating on being observant, -5 penalty).

Action: Varies. Every time you have a chance to spot something in a reactive manner you can make a Spot check without using an action. Trying to spot something you failed to see previously is a move action. To read lips, you must concentrate for a full minute before making a Spot check, and you can’t perform any other action (other than moving at up to half speed) during this minute.

Try Again: Yes. You can try to spot something that you failed to see previously at no penalty. You can attempt to read lips once per minute.

Special: (snipped, as SRD, except.....)
Quiet surroundings, keen hearing, or the scent ability add a +2 bonus to the check.

Exceptional senses (blindsense, tremorsense) each give a +4 bonus to the check.

If you have 5 or more ranks in Notice, you get a +2 bonus on Spot checks.


NOTICE (WIS)
Check: The Notice skill represents the powers of all senses other than “sight”: smell (scent), hearing, touch, blindsense, and tremorsense. You use the Notice check to become aware of faint sensations, locate hidden subjects, or at the beginning of encounters.

• To Notice faint sensations, such as the noise of a distant battle, the scent of an object, or the approach of a incautious creature, the DM will set a DC that reflects how strong or faint the sensation is. Examples include.....

 

[Nifft]

I like the new Spot, but I don't see why you need a Notice. It's particularly unfair if you go ahead and merge Move Silently with Hide (into Sneak).

-- N

 

[DrSpunj]

First off, assuming these rules are in a form I'm willing to adopt IMC, I'll be calling the secondary skill either Awareness or Perception. Both of those paint the "right" mental imagery for me when I think about asking repeatedly for checks using those skills.

• Make a Spot check...
• Make an Awareness check...
• Make a Perception check...
• Make a Notice check...

That last one makes me think we're all sitting around having afternoon tea and we're trying to figure out if the waiter is coming with the crumpets yet. (Sorry, Nail! )

I like much of what you've written here, Nail, but I do have a couple comments. The first is about the third bullet point under Spot. I think it should read:

• Either Spot or Awareness checks may be called for to determine the distance at which an encounter begins. If both may be used, you can choose which skill to use and may receive a bonus to the check representing bringing multiple senses to bear.

Just like Nifft was doing in his posts on the front page of this thread, there should be a bonus for bringing multiple senses to bear at the same time, but I think each creature should be able to choose which skill to actually roll if either one will work.

The second thing, and the largest by far, is that I think you've "cheapened" the secondary skill too much, and now that I think about it, that may be what Nifft is refering to. Quite frankly, I'd have to agree with him.

If Spot has all the Special bonuses you've listed for Hearing, Scent, Blindsense & Tremorsense, why would anyone bother to put anymore than 5 ranks (for the +2 synergy bonus) into Awareness? Every creature is better off (even if they're not primarily a visually-oriented creature) to keeping Spot maxed, putting no more than 5 ranks in Awareness, and then getting a bunch of secondary bonuses for their extra senses to their Spot roll.

I think it's very important to keep all those extra sense bonuses internal to Awareness. That is, if a creature has Scent, Tremorsense, Hearing, and/or Blindsense, wouldn't they probably rely on those senses at least as much, if not more, than their vision with Spot?

To keep that distinction in a mechanical sense, all those Special bonuses you've listed under Spot I think need to be removed and placed under the Awareness skill. The only synergies that should be allowed between Spot and Awareness, IMO, are the 5 rank/+2 synergy bonus AND a bonus to represent using both of them at the same time (regardless of which one you actually roll) like I mentioned at the top of this post regarding Spot's third bullet point. If you've got special senses, then you should be getting more bonuses, putting more ranks and making more rolls with Awareness.

I think that will keep them both useful and make them very distinct. If a creature is primarily visual (like most PC races) but also has one other sense (like Hearing), they'll be better off maxing Spot and putting 5 ranks into Awareness. OTOH, for a creature that has more than one other sense like Hearing, Scent, Tremorsense or Blindsense, they'll actually be better represented & served by keeping Awareness maxed with 5 ranks in Spot.

Now, as to whether or not some bonuses should be +2 vs +4, well, I just don't feel too strongly about it. But here's a few thoughts:

• I like the "+2 synergy for 5 ranks" bonus between the two skills. I think it should work both ways for obvious reasons.
• With the "+2 synergy for 5 ranks" bonus in place, I think a simple +2 bonus is enough to represent bringing both Spot & Awareness to bear. That is, when both checks could be used the creature gets to pick whichever one to roll and gets a +2 from the other one being useful.
• I don't mind using a flat +4 bonus to Awareness for each special sense beyond the first. I know the rules stipulate that Tremorsense & Blindsense are better senses than Hearing & Scent, but a flat +4 is much easier to remember.
• That being said, it's also not overly complex to remember that Scent gives a +2 and Tremorsense/Blindsense each give a +4.
• It almost seems that Hearing should be the "base" sense in Awareness since it's the most universal across all creatures. I know there are a few out there who are deaf, but they universally have other senses (Tremorsense usually, IIRC), but it's easy enough to say those creatures get a -2 deaf penalty (that wouldn't completely cancel out their +4 from Tremorsense or Blindsense). They'd still get to make Awareness checks, unlike a creature without any other special senses than Hearing whose deaf (they'd have to rely completely on Spot, and IMO would lose the +2 synergy from 5 ranks in Awareness while they were deaf).

Hope that all made sense! [<- Not trying to be punny. Really! ]

Thanks.

DrSpunj