Scent, Spot, Listen, Blindsight....as skill checks?

[LightPhoenix]

Moreover, as a skill check, you could potentially smell someone from further away. (I'm reminded of the ole' Wolverine comics from the 80's.) Or a spider could tremorsense an opponent further than 60ft....with a range penalty, of course.

On an Awareness skill check, you'd get bonuses from ranks, ability score (Wis), and feats, plus circumstance bonuses if more than one sense strongly can come into play. (IOW, above a "baseline", as Nifft suggests.) To keep things simple, it would still be a straight -1/10 feet away.

Makes sense, I'm sold on your way.

 

[Nail]

I've done some more thinking on this subject. Rusty gears turning, an' all o' that.

It seems that there are two things in play here:

• Do you know what "square" a creature is in? (smell, hearing, tremorsense, blindsense, etc)
• Can you "see" what the creature is doing in that square? (vision, darkvision, blindsight)

What if we had 2 skills, and 2 subsequent conditions:

• Sense: If you can sense the subject, you know what grid square its in, but it may/may not have full concealment (and 50% miss chance). Example: a guard dog successfully senses the invisible rogue, and so knows where the rogue is, but still suffers all the penalties from invisibility.
  
• Spot: If you can "see" the subject, no full concealment (but perhaps partial, with 20% miss chance). Example: A dragon successfully Spots an invisible, hiding rogue, and so suffers no penalties from the invisibility (or hiding!).

"Seeing" or sight allows you to know what the subject is doing, retain your dex bonus to AC, etc.

"Sensing" (by smell, hearing, etc) allows you to know exactly where the subject is, but not what it's doing. So you might lose your Dex bonus to AC, you might have a 50% or 20% miss chance, etc., depending on concealment.

The Listen skill would be subsumed by this new skill, and various creatures would gain racial bonuses, because of excellent senses of smell, hearing, tremorsense, etc. Those creatures might have additional notes like: "The creature may use it's racial bonus to Sense on its Search checks while tracking opponents, because of its excellent sense of smell."

When a "surprise" situation develops, a creature may use only one of the two skills to determine surprise. When trying to guard an area, a creature may use both....just as Listen and Spot are used presently.

The new idea here is separating "Knowing where you are" from "Knowing where you are, and what you're doing".

...........it's not a fully fleshed out idea, but it's a start. Any thoughts?

 

[Esiminar]

I use some of the rules found here in the articles about senses.

 

[Nail]

Thanks....but I'd like to simplify, where possible. Adding several new skills to the game (without taking some away), makes things more complicated, slower, and harder to excel at (since there are limited numbers of skill points).

The system in the "2 pager" would mean that most animals would absolutely suck at the Sniff skill, as they get so few skill points.

Do you want your Bbn 10 out sniffing a bloodhound?

 

[DrSpunj]

It seems that there are two things in play here:

• Do you know what "square" a creature is in? (smell, hearing, tremorsense, blindsense, etc)
• Can you "see" what the creature is doing in that square? (vision, darkvision, blindsight)

What if we had 2 skills, and 2 subsequent conditions:

• Sense: If you can sense the subject, you know what grid square its in, but it may/may not have full concealment (and 50% miss chance). Example: a guard dog successfully senses the invisible rogue, and so knows where the rogue is, but still suffers all the penalties from invisibility.
• Spot: If you can "see" the subject, no full concealment (but perhaps partial, with 20% miss chance). Example: A dragon successfully Spots an invisible, hiding rogue, and so suffers no penalties from the invisibility (or hiding!).

<snip>
...........it's not a fully fleshed out idea, but it's a start. Any thoughts?

It's not a bad one, but like you said it takes a bit of a mental shift to work on. Just a few quick thoughts before I let it mull awhile:

We'll need special notes about the various senses that spell out when they allow a check and when not. That's not a big deal since we have to do the same thing for Awareness or whatever, just the same.

Scent doesn't fit nicely, or I need you to explain how it works under this system. Scent allows you to know the presence within 30', but not the actual square until you're within 5'. I don't see how your proposal works with the definition of Sense you've listed above...unless...you get a check as soon as you're within Scent-range? And if you make it you know which square they're in? Meaning it's actually more powerful under this skill because you have the potential to pinpoint the square from further than 5' away? I don't think that's what you're proposing, but as I said, I can't make Scent "fit" into the scheme you've described.

I'm sure I'll come up with others, but I like the basic premise. It's very similar to the Hide/Spot/Invisibility scenario under Core. Someone who's Invisible & Hiding can still get the jump on someone who's Spotted the fact that someone Invisible is nearby but hasn't pinpointed their location yet. Actually, in that scenario I'd probably give a bonus (+4?) to a Spot check made after a successful Sense check.

Another random thought, since Sense could be a bit confusing with Sense Motive, I might still go with Awareness instead of Sense, and if your proposal works out just leave Spot separate.

Hmmm....

DrSpunj

 

[Tonguez]

Scent doesn't fit nicely, or I need you to explain how it works under this system. Scent allows you to know the presence within 30', but not the actual square until you're within 5'. I don't see how your proposal works with the definition of Sense you've listed above...unless...you get a check as soon as you're within Scent-range? And if you make it you know which square they're in? Meaning it's actually more powerful under this skill because you have the potential to pinpoint the square from further than 5' away? I don't think that's what you're proposing, but as I said, I can't make Scent "fit" into the scheme you've described.

I like the idea too and think Awareness is a better name than Sense (actually I'd go for Perception myself but hey)

The modification I'd make is that the 'Sense/Awareness' check allows you to detect the presence of the target and orientate yourself to it (so you could fire a crossbow bolt and have a chance of hitting something within that 30 ft)

It would require a Feat (Scent, Hearing, Tremorsense, Blindisght) to determine the exact square the target occupies (essentially saying that the Feat allows the creature to use its Perception (Sense/Awareness) like Spot (and search).

 

[Tessarael]

[..]
Scent doesn't fit nicely, or I need you to explain how it works under this system. Scent allows you to know the presence within 30', but not the actual square until you're within 5'.

Hearing, scent and other "senses" that are not pinpoint ones should give you a direction and at best approximate distance. (e.g. They could give you a 60 degree arc from which the sound/smell/etc. occurred.)

I think I would handle Scent similarly to vision and hearing. i.e. There are range limitations, just as Dwarven Darkvision extends for 60'.

Scent at a range of 5', acts as Spot. Scent between 5' and 30' acts as a "sense".

I like Nail's approach of keeping two different skills for Spot and Listen (Sense). As my DM put it, if you merge Listen/Spot and Hide/Move Silently you will make it much easier for other characters (e.g. Ranger) to be as good as a Rogue in these skills, as fewer skill points are needed. Also, it removes needing to rework the majority of monsters.

And yeah, I really don't like the idea that my Rogue's Hide and Move Silently are completely nerfed by Blindsight et al. Ok, fair enough, my Rogue should require at least partial cover in those situations vs. a Spot skill (same deal with Darkvision - you need cover, or magical darkness), but completely nerfing my high level Rogue skills is irritating.

My high level Rogue character invested in a magic item that prevents Scent working. That helps, but obviously won't work vs. Blindsense and Blindsight. Also, I think a better mechanic would be to give the Scent "sense" skill a penalty or my Move Silently a bonus in that situation (say +20, same way Invisibility works) - rather than just saying Scent completely fails.

If characters don't mask their smell, it would make sense for Scent to give a "sense" bonus to notice their presence. However, I agree that it's ridiculous that a high-level Rogue wouldn't try to avoid this situation. (Ok, so I blacken my sword blades and shiny objects, use deodorant/dirt/whatever to dull or disguise my smell, keep to partial cover or better, tie stuff together so it doesn't jingle, etc ...)

Just my thoughts ...

 

[Nail]

We'll need special notes about the various senses that spell out when they allow a check and when not.

The idea, actually, would be that we would not have to worry about when to make the check. That is, we're rolling all of the non-visual senses into one skill.....sort of a modified "Listen" check. (Of course, there would be range and circumstance modifiers.....we would have to sketch those out.)

Scent doesn't fit nicely, or I need you to explain how it works under this system. ...

Heh. You and me both!

In this "proposed" system, scent would be more powerful.....in being able to detect the opponent's location at longer range. But unlike the present scent ability, doing so would not be automatic; there would be a skill check, modified by distance. Moreover, we wouldn't have to distinguish what sense the creature uses....except in unusual circumstances.

Let's see if I can work through an example. Just a random setting.....

A kobold rogue is sneaking into a partially fortified orc encampment, within an ancient ruined citadel. There are orcs with guard dogs on patrol. It's nighttime, with a few guttering torches scattered about. The orcs and the kobold have darkvision, the dogs have low-light vision.

The dogs have the scent ability, which in the new system means that they get a +8 to their Awareness check as long as their noses work and there is a scent. The default for both of these is "yes".

The rogue gets close enough that the DM requires skill checks for the rogue, the orcs, and the dogs. Say....100 ft? Here are the numbers:

Kobold Rogue: +18 Stealth check
Orc Warrior: +1 Spot check, +3 Awareness check
Dog +5 Spot check, +13 Awareness check

For the first check, everyone rolls 10s. Since the rogue is outside both darkvision and torchlight, the guards + dogs use their Awareness checks. The dogs get (23 - 10 for range) 13, not enough to beat the rogue's 28. They don't know he's there.

The rogue careful advances, taking advantage of every bit of brush and cover he can, as he knows that the orc's darkvision negates the concealment darkness provides. At about 50ft, the DM calls for another check.

For this second check everyone rolls 10s. The rogue is within darkvision range, but not yet torchlight. Both the guards and dogs still use their Awareness skill, as they have a better chance (Orcs 13 check, Dogs 18 check)...but they still fail to notice the rogue (28 check).

The rogue, using the edges of broken blocks and a few stray tufts of crabgrass, sneaks to within 10 feet of the orcs and dogs on patrol. The DM, after raising an eyebrow for such risky behavior, calls for another check.

Again, the orcs and dogs "chose" to use their Awareness skill rather than their Spot skill. (I don't think its fair for them to get to do both, do you??? An honest question.)

For this third check, everyone rolls......differently! The rogue rolls a 6, for a total stealth check of 24. The orc rolls a 19 (!), for an awareness check of 23. And the dogs roll a 12, for an awareness check of 25.

The dogs know the rogue is there, and bark at him!...and further hilarity ensues, as the orcs and dogs try to Spot the rogue that's right under their noses.

Hmmm....

My thoughts exactly.

 

[Nail]

Hearing, scent and other "senses" that are not pinpoint ones should give you a direction and at best approximate distance. (e.g. They could give you a 60 degree arc from which the sound/smell/etc. occurred.)

I agree that's one way to do it....possibly even a better way. But I think it's probably enough (close enough to "reasonable") to say that these other senses can find the grid square you are in. They cannot know what you are doing, however, so they still might lose Dex bonus to AC, etc....and you would still be "hidden", potentially.

That is to say, there are only 2 kinds of senses:

• #1) A sense (normally vision) that can "see" what the subject is doing, allowing an appropriate reaction or response. Blindsight and darkvision are (Ex) abilities that allow this sense in sitiuations that normally forbid it, for example.
• #2) A sense that "notices" where the subject is (like most hearing and smelling, blindsense, perhaps even tremorsense), but can't tell that the subject is swinging the sword at your head, rather than your buttocks, for example.

.....Sorry, just saw Forest Gump...

 

[DrSpunj]

The idea, actually, would be that we would not have to worry about when to make the check. That is, we're rolling all of the non-visual senses into one skill.....sort of a modified "Listen" check. (Of course, there would be range and circumstance modifiers.....we would have to sketch those out.)

Well, I guess that's what I meant. A bat with Blindsense is likely going to get different bonuses and/or be able to use his "radar" in different circumstances than a dog using Scent. A Silence spell confounds (there's that word again ) the former, actually negating an Awareness check, IMO, but wouldn't significantly affect the dog (though I could see a mild penalty, -2?, or at least the lack of a bonus to the roll as Nifft described above, because the dog can't bring Listen to bear).

I think it will be a fair trade giving up the "automaticness" of Scent, Blindsense, Tremorsense, etc. by allowing them to extend further than Core delineates but with the -1 per 10' standard distance penalty. It is a bit of a stretch to believe a bat's sonar extends 60' with a -6 penalty, but this is a game and I'm working towards balance & playability, not necessarily realism. YMMV.

I'm kind of warming to Tessarael's "direction sense" rather than pinpointing the square. These are just brainstorming ideas, but what about this:

With your Kobold/Orc/Dog example Nail, what if with a positive Awareness check the DM then identified which direction you sensed something? I'm not thinking something as broad and nebulous as a 60 degree arc, I'm thinking an actual line that starts wherever you are and is drawn like a ray away from you, passing through the square where your sneaky foe is. You don't know whether whoever you sensed is 10' away (like your Kobold) or 100' away (though IMC I'd probably at least give "close" to mean within charging distance and "far" or "a ways thataway" for anything further). A second successful Awareness check (taken with an active Move Action like Core rules mandate for retrying Spot or Listen, it's not a passive reactive free action type check now) actually pinpoints their square. Since you've successfully sensed their direction you get a +4 bonus to any further checks to locate them assuming they haven't moved. This would force another Sneak check from the Kobold, of course, which makes sense to me since any novel I've read or movie I've ever seen has someone try to stand statue-still and shrink into the shadows whenever they're sneaking around and accidentally disturb a pebble, brush a bush, or step on that errant twig that alerts the guards to their presence. The guards always turn towards the direction the noise came from, but don't know where exactly their foe is hidden.

Also, if both Awareness & Spot could be used to sense an opponent, I'd rather allow the creature to choose which one they want to use and then give them a flat +4 to represent bringing their other senses to bear, very much like Nifft described above. I'm working towards simplifying a game of Hide & Seek to opposed rolls, one on each side, but I don't think it's fair to deny the Seeker the use of any of their abilities/senses. A bat doesn't have great vision, but if it could potentially see the target then it should get a +4 on its Awareness (representing Blindsense) check, IMO.

Finally, Nail I'm going to lobby for something here. Do any of these sound funny to you?

• I Climb the stalagtite...
• I Hide behind the pillar...
• I Jump over the low wall...
• I Listen at the door...
• I Move Silently down the stairs...
• I Search the bureau...
• I Sneak past the sleeping guard...
• I Stealth over to that large rock...
• I Tumble past the orc...

With Action Skills I like using Verbs. YMMV.

Thanks.

DrSpunj