Scent, Spot, Listen, Blindsight....as skill checks?

[Nail]

I disagree with the name "awareness". Awareness or perception don't fit the action verb model, nor do they imply the right thing, IMO. Awareness sounds too much like the feat Alertness, in part because of the word form, in part becasue they start with the same letter. Perception might be better, but again sounds like an ability score, like strength, rather than a skill, like notice. In both cases, I'm not sure they mirror the same sort of structure of Spot or Listen.

But these are quibbles, really. ...Fun ones, though. I'll be interested to hear how the awareness skill name plays out in-game.

"So, have you Awared the bad guy, or not?" "Someone's talking? I try to Aware what they're saying." "Yeah, I failed the check. I can't even Aware my hand in front of my face!"

(Besides, if I distract you all with that quibbling, you won't realize how good the rest of DrSpunj's comments are...and that I'm stealing them, lock, stock, and barrel. )

Okay, let's try a revision : Version 2

SPOT (WIS)
Check: The Spot skill represents seeing, recognizing, and being able to react normally to creatures or objects. In order to use this skill, you must be able to “see” the subject, either with normal vision, darkvision, or blindsight. (Note: darkvision and blindsight typically have very short effective ranges, but negate some forms of concealment or cover.) A Spot check is only necessary if the subject is hidden or difficult to see, if the subject is disguised in some way, or at the beginning of encounters.

• When a creature is hidden or difficult to see, you roll either a Spot or a Notice check, and that roll is opposed by the Sneak check of the hidden creature. If the subject is not intentionally Sneaking, its Sneak check is 0, modified by circumstance (see the Sneak skill description).
• Spot is also used to detect someone in disguise (see the Disguise skill), and to read lips when you can’t hear or understand what someone is saying.
• Either Spot or Notice checks may be called for to determine the distance at which an encounter begins.

Read Lips: (snipped, as SRD)

All Spot checks are penalized by distance (-1 per 10 feet) or if the character making the Spot check is distracted (not concentrating on being observant, -5 penalty).

Action: Varies. Every time you have a chance to spot something in a reactive manner you can make a Spot check without using an action. Trying to spot something you failed to see previously is a move action. To read lips, you must concentrate for a full minute before making a Spot check, and you can’t perform any other action (other than moving at up to half speed) during this minute.

Try Again: Yes. You can try to spot something that you failed to see previously at no penalty. You can attempt to read lips once per minute.

Special: (snipped, as SRD, except.....)
If you could reasonably use either Spot or Notice for a check, you receive a +2 bonus to the one you chose. This represents the synergy of using all of your senses at once. A task that only uses sight (like reading lips, guarding while in a crowded and noisy room, or watching a far mountain top) does not get this bonus.

If you have 5 or more ranks in Notice, you get a +2 bonus on Spot checks.

 

[DrSpunj]

But these are quibbles, really. ...Fun ones, though. I'll be interested to hear how the awareness skill name plays out in-game.

Yeah, even I have to admit I like Perception over Awareness. Mostly because of the action verb usage with "Perceive". Still, it is lacking the niftiness I'm looking for (but it still beats "Notice", IMO! )

Doing a quick run on Notice, Perceive & Aware at Thesaurus.com yields these possibilities:

acknowledge, attend, detect, discern, discover, distinguish, divine, feel, grasp, heed, identify, mark, mind, observe, realize, recognize, regard, sense

You know, maybe we're making this harder than it needs to be. What's wrong with using the last one in the list? I know it may be confused with Sense Motive, but the two checks are used in completely different situations the vast majority of the time so I think the confusion would be minimal. Hmmm....

(Besides, if I distract you all with that quibbling, you won't realize how good the rest of DrSpunj's comments are...and that I'm stealing them, lock, stock, and barrel. )

Well, your quibbles weren't overly effective, but the flattery worked pretty well.

Alright, since I like what you've got for that half of things, he's a quick first draft attempt at the other half.

SENSE (WIS)
The Sense skill represents your ability to detect what's going on around you without seeing it. This skill is what gets the hair on the back of your neck up when someone is sneaking up behind you, tunneling up through the floor, or lying in wait in the next room. It encompasses all senses other than sight, including Blindsense, Hearing, Scent & Tremorsense, as well as any others the DM feels are appropriate.

Check: A Sense check can only be made in a situation where a non-visual sense may give you information. You must possess at least one appropriate sense to make a check at all and you usually receive bonuses to the check if you have more than one of these senses.
Your Sense check is either made against a DC that reflects how difficult your target is to perceive, or it is opposed by your target's Sneak check.
Your DM may decide to make the Sense check for you, so that you don't know whether not sensing anything means that nothing is there, or that you failed the check.

• When a creature is hidden or difficult to see, you roll either a Spot or a Sense check, and that roll is opposed by the Sneak check of the hidden creature. If the subject is not intentionally Sneaking, its Sneak check is 0, modified by circumstance (see the Sneak skill description).
• Either Spot or Sense checks may be called for to determine the distance at which an encounter begins.

Sense Check Modifiers:

• All Sense checks are penalized by distance (-1 per 10 feet) or if the character making the Sense check is distracted (not concentrating on being observant, -5 penalty).
• Sense for most creatures is primarily based upon Hearing. If you cannot Hear (because you are deaf, being affected by a Silence spell, or some other reason), you make Sense checks at a -2 penalty. (Note: If Hearing is your only non-visual Sense, you cannot make a Sense check at all.)
• If you have the Blindsense ability, you get a +4 bonus on Sense checks.
• If you have the Scent ability, you get a +2 bonus on Sense checks.
• If you have the Tremorsense ability, you get a +4 bonus on Sense checks.

Action: Varies. Every time you have a chance to sense something in a reactive manner you can make a Sense check without using an action. Trying to sense something you failed to perceive previously is a move action.

Try Again: Yes. You can try to sense something that you failed to perceive previously at no penalty.

Special:
If you could reasonably use either Spot or Sense for a check, you receive a +2 bonus to the one you chose. This represents the synergy of using all of your senses at once. A task that does not use sight (like listening through a door, feeling vibrations in the floor or smelling something through a crack in the wall) does not get this bonus.

If you have 5 or more ranks in Spot, you get a +2 bonus on Sense checks.
*****************************************************************

How's that?

Thanks.

DrSpunj

 

[Nail]

It's crazy, but I've been spending most of my brain power on the name of this silly skill. As if the name really is such a big deal.......

....I, too, have arrived at "Sense" as probably the best choice. "Notice" does sound too much like English tea-time, what-what?

 

[Nail]

Now, as long as my computer doesn't crash again.....

Alright, since I like what you've got for that half of things, he's a quick first draft attempt at the other half.

Thanks! Excellent effort.

My suggestion is to broaden the scope of the skill just a wee bit, add in what "success" means, and then futz with the circumstance modifiers. Other than that, I'd say we're there!

SENSE (WIS)
The Sense skill represents what all of your non-visual senses tell you about your surroundings. These non-visual senses include hearing, smell, and touch, as well as the extraordinary abilities of Blindsense, Scent & Tremorsense. This skill even encompases that mysterious "6th sense", or "gut-feeling", the feeling that someone is sneaking up behind you, or lying in wait in the next room.

Check: Your Sense check is either made against a DC set by the DM, or it is opposed by another's Sneak check.

• When a creature is hidden or difficult to see, you roll either a Sense or a Spot check, and that roll is opposed by the Sneak check of the hidden creature. If the subject is not intentionally Sneaking, its Sneak check is 0, modified by circumstance (see the Sneak skill description).
• If you are trying to sense something other than a creature, the DM should determine an appropriate DC for your check.
• Either Spot or Sense checks may be called for to determine the distance at which an encounter begins.

You can only make a Sense check when at least one non-visual sense of yours could give you information. If more than one non-visual sense is useful (such as hearing and Scent for finding invisible creatures), you receive bonuses to the check. In many cases, the DM should roll your Sense check in secret, so you don't know if you were successful or not.

Sense Check Modifiers:

• All Sense checks are penalized by distance (-1 per 10 feet) or if the character making the Sense check is distracted (not concentrating on being observant, -5 penalty).
• Sense for most creatures is primarily based upon hearing. If you cannot hear (because you are deaf, being affected by a Silence spell, or some other reason), you make Sense checks at a -4 penalty. (Note: If hearing is your only non-visual Sense, you cannot make a Sense check at all.)
• Sense can be used even if the subject has total cover or total concealment. A shut door increases the DC by +5; a 1' thick stone wall increases the DC by +15.
• If you have the Blindsense ability, you get a +4 bonus on Sense checks.
• If you have the Scent ability, you get a +2 bonus on Sense checks.
• If you have the Tremorsense ability, you get a +4 bonus on Sense checks.

Success means you know where the subject is (what square the subject is in), but the subject may still be hidden, have total cover or concealment, and so on........

Action: Varies. Every time you have a chance to sense something in a reactive manner you can make a Sense check without using an action. Trying to sense something you failed to perceive previously is a move action.

Try Again: Yes. You can try to sense something that you failed to perceive previously at no penalty.

Special:
If you could reasonably use either Spot or Sense for a check, you receive a +2 bonus to the one you chose. This represents the synergy of using all of your senses at once. A task that does not use sight (like listening through a door, feeling vibrations in the floor or smelling something through a crack in the wall) does not get this bonus.

If you have 5 or more ranks in Spot, you get a +2 bonus on Sense checks.

*************
Aaack...ran out of time again.

 

[DrSpunj]

Now, as long as my computer doesn't crash again.....

I hate it when that happens!

Thanks! Excellent effort.

Cool! I think we're almost done with this. Here's a few pitnickies &/or questions:

• I think "6th sense" should be "sixth sense" (told you I was being pitnicky! ).
• With Deafness imposing a -4 penalty, you've now got Scent as the lamest Sense (since it's only a "2" and the other three are each worth "4"). Why is Scent worth "less" than the others to you, Nail? Since Core Tremorsense and Blindsense were "automatic" within their ranges, I've been ranking them "above" Scent & Hearing (which either take additional effort and/or don't give as much info under the RAW). If you've got 3 out of 4 worth the same, we might as well simplify all of them to a flat value of 4 and be done with it. Then the text is easier all around: "You must have a non-visual sense to make a Sense check at all, but for each additional sense beyond the first you get a +4 bonus to the check."
• I know we've been over this before, but I think a single success yielding up which exact square your opponent is in is too much information. While it certainly fits with the Tremorsense & Blindsense RAW (assuming you're within range, of course), it significantly strengthens Hearing & Scent. I think overpowerfully so. I think it would be better/balanced if a reactive Sense check yielded the direction (drawn as a line from you to the target, as I've suggested before) but it takes an active check (with a Move Action) to determine the actual square (just like the Core RAW for Scent, only here you can be potentially be much more than 5' away to determine that information). I think that gives us the best of both worlds: they all get rolled into a single skill with the same mechanics involved, but the trade-off is they all have to deal with the same limitations.

We're almost there....

Thanks!

DrSpunj

 

[Nail]

That's good, DrSpunj!

I knew about the reactive- free action vs. active-move action distinction,....I just didn't have time to write it. I agree with your sentiments on power levels of Sense.

I *might* have time after my 1:25pm class to write this up.

 

[Nail]

version ...4?

SENSE (WIS)
The Sense skill represents what all of your non-visual senses tell you about your surroundings. These non-visual senses include hearing, smell, and touch, as well as the extraordinary abilities of Blindsense, Scent & Tremorsense. This skill even encompases that mysterious "sixth sense", or "gut-feeling", the feeling that someone is sneaking up behind you, or lying in wait in the next room.

Check: Your Sense check is either made against a DC set by the DM, or it is opposed by another's Sneak check. You can only make a Sense check when at least one of your non-visual senses could give you information.

• When a creature is hidden or difficult to notice, you roll either a Sense or a Spot check, and that roll is opposed by the Sneak check of the hidden creature. If the subject is not intentionally Sneaking, its Sneak check is 0, modified by circumstance (see the Sneak skill description).
• If you are trying to sense something other than a creature (such as to hear a muffled conversation, or to smell a campfire), the DM should determine an appropriate DC for your check.
• Either Spot or Sense checks may be called for to determine the distance at which an encounter begins.

In many cases, the DM should roll your Sense check in secret, so you don't know if you were successful or not.

Sense Check Modifiers:

• All Sense checks are penalized by distance (-1 per 10 feet).
• If the character making the Sense check is distracted (not concentrating on being observant), he suffers a -5 penalty.
• Sense can be used even if the subject has total cover or total concealment. A shut door between you and the subject increases the DC by +5; each 6 inch thickness of solid wall increases the DC by +10.
• The basis of the Sense skill is hearing. If you cannot hear (because you are deaf, being affected by a Silence spell, or some other reason), you make Sense checks at a -4 penalty.
• Blindsense, Scent, and Tremorsense each give a +4 bonus to Sense checks that could use them.

Success on a reactive check means you know the exact direction and approximate distance (close, medium, far; as spell ranges) to the subject. Success when using the Sense skill as a move action allows you to know the precise location of the subject (what grid square the subject is in). In either case, the subject might still be hidden, have total cover or concealment, or be invisible.

Action: Varies. Every time you have a chance to sense something in a reactive manner you can make a Sense check without using an action. Trying to sense something you failed to notice previously is a move action.

Try Again: Yes. You can try to sense something that you failed to notice previously at no penalty.

Special: If you are allowed to use either Spot or Sense for a check, you receive a +2 bonus to the one you chose. This represents the synergy of using all of your senses at once.

A fascinated creature takes a –4 penalty on Sense checks made as reactions.

If you have the Alertness feat, you get a +2 bonus on Sense checks.

A ranger gains a bonus on Sense checks when using this skill against a favored enemy.

An elf, gnome, or halfling has a +2 racial bonus on Sense checks.

A half-elf has a +1 racial bonus on Sense checks.

If you have 5 or more ranks in Spot, you get a +2 bonus on Sense checks.

A sleeping character may make Sense checks at a –10 penalty. A successful check awakens the sleeper.

 

[DrSpunj]

Looks good to me! Only a couple final tweaks to consider:

Success on a reactive check means you know the exact direction and approximate distance (close, medium, far; as spell ranges) to the subject.

I think saying something is "a medium distance away" is...dumb. :\ I'm just not sure what I'd say instead. Moderate? Moderately Close? Intermediate? Nearby? Which is closer: Close or Near? Hrmph. Any ideas?

Also, while I like the "as spell ranges" part, since Long spell range is 400'+ I'd recommend using <=30' for Close, between >30' & <=100' for the middle one, and >100' for Far. Describing something at Long spell range is kind of silly, IMO (though if you manage to hear something with the -40 distance penalty I'll probably give you some good info!)

Special: If you are allowed to use either Spot or Sense for a check, you receive a +2 bonus to the one you chose. This represents the synergy of using all of your senses at once.

I think the previous statement sounds better like...

Special: If you are given the option to roll either a Spot or Sense check, you receive a +2 bonus to [the check|whichever] you choose to roll. This represents the synergy of using all of your senses at once.

...though I'm obviously unsure about "the check" vs "whichever". Opinions?

Otherwise, I'm willing to try these out ASAP and see how they work at the table!

Thanks.

DrSpunj