Scent, Spot, Listen, Blindsight....as skill checks?

[SteelDraco]

It only needs to be a skill if it's going to be rolled. When would you roll something like Blindsight or Tremorsense? The only time I could imagine using either as a skill would be an opposed roll vs either Hide (for Blindsight) or Move Silently (for Tremorsense). In such a circumstance, you wouldn't need to use any new mechanics; existing rolls for Spot and Listen would work just as well, IMO. Only if it's something significantly different would a new skill be necessary.

For example, I wouldn't require a Blindsight check to locate a creature in a darkness spell, for the same reason I wouldn't have someone make a Spot check to see someone in a normal combat situation. That's what the ability does; that's what it's for.

I guess I never thought about the fact that all animals have an Int penalty to skills... I just ignored that, and gave them 2 points/HD, regardless of Int score. Huh. Seems a bit odd to say 2 skill points per level, when by definition they're going to have less than that.

IMC, quite a few animals have skill bonuses to Scent. Most dogs, for example, have a +4 racial bonus. Trained hunting dogs usually have Skill Focus (Scent) as their 1 HD feat. This makes them pretty effective at tracking by scent, as they should be.

 

[DrSpunj]

It only needs to be a skill if it's going to be rolled. When would you roll something like Blindsight or Tremorsense? The only time I could imagine using either as a skill would be an opposed roll vs either Hide (for Blindsight) or Move Silently (for Tremorsense). In such a circumstance, you wouldn't need to use any new mechanics; existing rolls for Spot and Listen would work just as well, IMO. Only if it's something significantly different would a new skill be necessary.

Absolutely, I agree with you!

But it's Nail's thread and he's the one with the "issue" here. Since he's my DM I *do* have some vested interested in his ultimate decision on the matter, though.

Thanks.

DrSpunj

 

[Nifft]

Preliminary Awareness rules:

- Default situation is one modality (see, hear, taste, "esp"). Each additional applicable modality grants a +4 bonus to your check.

Default conditions:
Sight: partial cover, full daylight.
Sound: 40 Db background noise (living forest during the day), target within 60 ft.
Taste: heavily spiced food (note check is for poison or similar non-food taste).
Scent: no wind, target within 30 ft.
"ESP": psychic sensitive at the site of a single brutal murder or a single humanoid in the grip of violent insanity.
Tremorsense: grants a +10 bonus instead of +4.
Blindsense: anything within range, but standard +4 bonus.
Blindsight: grants a +10 bonus instead of +4.
(Touch: handled by Search skill -- "frisking" for example.)

- Humans obviously don't have most of these modalities by default.

-- N

 

[SteelDraco]

Default conditions:
Sight: partial cover, full daylight.
Sound: 40 Db background noise (living forest during the day), target within 60 ft.
Taste: heavily spiced food (note check is for poison or similar non-food taste).
Scent: no wind, target within 30 ft.
"ESP": psychic sensitive at the site of a single brutal murder or a single humanoid in the grip of violent insanity.
Tremorsense: grants a +10 bonus instead of +4.
Blindsense: anything within range, but standard +4 bonus.
Blindsight: grants a +10 bonus instead of +4.
(Touch: handled by Search skill -- "frisking" for example.)

- Humans obviously don't have most of these modalities by default.

-- N

So, if I'm reading that right, a normal human would get a +4 Awareness bonus to during normal situations, since they have access to both the Sight and Sound sense modes?

 

[Nifft]

So, if I'm reading that right, a normal human would get a +4 Awareness bonus to during normal situations, since they have access to both the Sight and Sound sense modes?

If someone is trying to sneak up on you, within auditory range, when there's no significant background noise, and they only have partial cover, yes, that's a +4. This is a situation that would entitle a Core human both a Spot and a Listen roll, so the +4 is emulating that.

"Normal" situations (that do NOT grant a +4) include:
- Someone making noise around a corner (full cover).
- Someone making noise beyond your range of light/sight (total conealment).
- Someone hiding perfectly still, thus not triggering a "move silently" roll.
- Someone hiding near a waterfall, where you can't hear worth a wooden monkey.

-- N

 

[pyk]

blindsense, tremorsene

Actually, to a certain degree, humans are able to learn these. This is howblind people run their daily lives. Some soldiers can actually become quite good at it.

Personally, rolling all the "sensory" skills into one skill is placing too much complication into a single skill, which then places too much burden onto "some" DMs. Especially, those of us who prefer a simpler method which involves the skills being independant upon each other.

This is for me, and I'm glad the core rules are the way they are.

 

[DrSpunj]

If someone is trying to sneak up on you, within auditory range, when there's no significant background noise, and they only have partial cover, yes, that's a +4. This is a situation that would entitle a Core human both a Spot and a Listen roll, so the +4 is emulating that.

I think this is a good point. It's often easier to just ask for a Spot check (since we tend to think visually) or let the players roll whichever they want (Spot or Listen), but it quickly becomes burdensome to have each player roll for both each time they could do so. Usually when I'm DMing I'll have them make one roll and lower the DC by 2 or 4 to reflect the fact that either sense could tip them off something is going on.

I also like that Nifft is going with a straight skill roll with a bonus for each additional sense relevant to the situation rather than my proposal earlier which would incur a penalty for each additional sense that doesn't apply. The Core rules are typically built around bonuses in general, and there's already a few specific situations built-in (i.e. Familiars - Owls with +3 to Spot in shadows, Eagles with +3 to Spot in bright light). It's just slicker this way.

Nifft, I do have to say that the "full daylight" requirement for Sight threw me until I looked up Low-light vision and realized it allows one to see in dim illumination as if it were actually bright as daylight.

Finally, FYI, I noticed in Monte's AU that a spell giving the Scent ability is only a 1st level Simple spell. Darkvision in Core is a 2nd level spell. Blindsight from Magic of Faerun is 3rd level (should probably be 4th, IMO) and extends out to 30'. Anyone know of a spell giving someone Blindsense? Or Tremorsense? Short of changing their form, I mean.

Thanks.

DrSpunj

 

[Dark Psion]

Over at Throwing Dice Games free stuff Here you will find three "Senses" pdf. articles that add skills, feats and spells that might help you.

 

[jessemock]

I think that all of these "special sense" abilities should be rolled into a skill check, just as normal vision is rolled into Spot, and hearing is what the Listen skill is all about. Reason: why does things like Scent and Blindsight get to be automatic, whereas seeing (Spot) and hearing (Listen), is not?

.....so: Is it a good idea to have skill checks for Blindsight? For Scent? For Temorsense?

What would be best? It could be a Spot roll, a new skill roll, or combine everything into a "Sense" skill roll.

Or maybe the whole mess should be left alone.....

Comments?

What would you roll the checks against? I mean that Spot & Listen can be rolled against attempts to foil them: Hide & Move Silently. Move Scentlessly? Hide Scent? These skills aren't available--and probably shouldn't be available to any but, perhaps, certain ranger types.

Same for tremorsense, blind-sight, etc.

Now, it is reasonable to say that circumstances may arise that will impede the use of one of these abilities, especially scent: being upwind, for example. Question is: will these circumstances arise often enough to merit more than a binary resolution?

That's a campaign question. If you have guys trying to track with scent all day long, then, yeah, make it a skill check or something.

Even then I'd hesitate to do more than say, 'yes' or 'no', to resolve the use of scent. I'd bother with it only if there're some major scent tricks taking place, e.g. rangers rubbing themselves with scent glands to disguise their scent.

I'd maybe allow a MS check to move without vibrating the earth; oppose it to a wisdom check or something. But how often do characters try to sneak up on or past some kind of burrowing animal or whatever?

 

[DrSpunj]

What would you roll the checks against? I mean that Spot & Listen can be rolled against attempts to foil them: Hide & Move Silently. Move Scentlessly? Hide Scent? These skills aren't available--and probably shouldn't be available to any but, perhaps, certain ranger types.

Same for tremorsense, blind-sight, etc.

<snip>

I'd maybe allow a MS check to move without vibrating the earth; oppose it to a wisdom check or something. But how often do characters try to sneak up on or past some kind of burrowing animal or whatever?

I guess that's part of what really bugs me about the Core RAW. A 20th level PC (Rogue, Ranger, whatever) with maxed Hide & Move Silently skills can't really sneak around most foes worth $#!+.

The Hide skill says directly that it's only opposed by Spot, and Move Silently says directly that it's only opposed by Listen. It's hard-coded into the system and that just doesn't make much sense to me, and more importantly, it's not all that fun! That's four chances to get caught: a poor Hide roll, a poor Move Silently roll, a good Spot check or a good Listen check.

Is it so unreasonable in a world where other characters at 20th level are casting Wishes & Miracles and laying waste to literally armies of lesser foes without being scratched, that a near-epic individual trained to move super stealthily actually have some reasonable chance to fool a dog's nose? a bat's blindsight? or a thoqqua's tremorsense? All of those creatures have 3 HD or less, and yet each can pinpoint our super-sneaky dude doing his best in less than 30 seconds.

Given how many of those abilities are available to even low-level spellcasters (depending on the campaign), even the BBEG could realistically foil any stealthy attempts by our heroes.

So what's the point of keeping your Hide skill maxed at mid to higher levels?

I hope to use the Awareness skill along with the Sneak skill to actually allow Mr. Sneaky to do some cool stuff. A single opposed roll. Should a dog/bat/thoqqua have a better chance at catching our guy than Joe Human? Absolutely, but better shouldn't be *always* IMO.

I've always loved Arnold coming out of the mud wall to take the Predator, despite his high-tech & near-magical infravision, by surprise. That's Sneaking!

Thanks.

DrSpunj