Science in High Middle Ages

[Galloglaich]

Good thread.

I think if you look at some of the science was around at this time, not just in Europe but in places like Persia and the Arab countries, it can get pretty durned interesting. Things like sulfuric and hydrochoric acid, pure alcohol etc. not to mention say, gunpowder, have a lot more potential implications / applications in game than are usually given.

Even more apropo for DnD, there is a fascinating link between lot of the historical scientists and sorcery. Many of the great thinkers of history were deeply interested in Magic. The famous Persian alchemist Al Gebir, for example, who invented / discovered the Albemic, Sulphuric Acid, Hydrochoric Acid (both of which were extremely important foundations for modern Chemistry) and hte distilation of Alcohol, and Crystalization among other things, also wrote about how to summon a Scorpion to kill your enemies.

Geber - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Geber's alchemical investigations ostensibly revolved around the ultimate goal of takwin — the artificial creation of life. The Book of Stones includes several recipes for creating creatures such as scorpions, snakes, and even humans in a laboratory environment, which are subject to the control of their creator. What Geber meant by these recipes is today unknown.

This notion of Takwin has all to do with the creation of artificial Life ala the infamous Homonculus (something which was prominent in OEDnD but seems to have fallen by the wayside) and spells like Clone. This was an obsession of real life wizards from history. Another famous example was the famous Golem allegedly created by the maharal of Prague in the 16th Century in a quasi-scientific / magical manner.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golem#The_classic_narrative

The tradition of linking Science and magic went on through the era Niel Stephenson writes about, Sir Isaac Newton was a practicing Wizard for example who engaged in Magical warfare with his rivals.

I also highly reccomend this site

Twilit Grotto -- Esoteric Archives

Which contains the works of such fascinating figures such as Giodorno Bruno, the author of such enigmaticly named tomes as the Shadow of Ideas considered a major figure in Renaissance philosophy, who was burned at the stake for witchcraft.

Finally I'd also highly reccomend studying some of the late Classical era Scientific Wizards such as Archemedes and Heron

Archimedes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Hero of Alexandria - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

They were true technological wizards, who made technologies (like the alleged 'solar laser' which supposedly burned up Roman ships) which could make for great dramatic concepts in DnD whether it was real or not. But it's really the smaller details of all the stuff they created and what they did with it that you could really run with in a DnD game.

Their equivalents in the Renaissance were of course guys like Leonardo DaVinci

G.

 

[Gregor]

Hey there,

While I do not have any useful real world examples or advice to assist you, I do think that you should read The Lies of Locke Lamora by Scott Lynch (Books by Scott Lynch).

Asides from being a pretty fantastic fantasy novel, the book also creates a really original setting where alchemy and science are more widespread than magic. So, people wear glasses, there are objects like alchemical light globes or hearthstones, poisons and drugs that have been alchemically altered, cross-bred plants and animals (the scorpion hawk is awesome).

I think this book would really give you some inspiration for what you're trying to do in your RPG.

Hope that helped.

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

Good point, much of the proto-sciences was seen as the ultimate act of faith to discover the secrets of God's creation. However, in a world with the supernatural, some of this (as you mention zoology and herbalism) could border on blasphemous or at least highly suspect and the church might prefer to see it supressed or at least contained.

Sure, but the High Medieval Church would have been exceedingly methodical in distinguishing between what was and wasn't blasphemous or demonic.

The Scholastics were, in theory, comfortable with 'magic' as long as it wasn't based in insulting god in some fasion mostly through literal blasphemy, diabolism, or 'uninspired' forms of divination.

Naturally, they also wouldn't have been cool with acts that were simply intrinsically evil.


If you're looking for a force to persecute local scientists I recommend trade guilds. The basic set-up of such systems implies that all intellectual capital belongs to the collective and is non-transferable. Unles you have acceess to University protections, developing new ideas, experiments and techniques is tantamout to copy right theft or piracey under our currenfil regime.

 

[Jack7]

Yes, this is the approach I'm taking too. Proto-science (or whatever it is called) is practiced in secret by an elite few. While I can certainly see this being the province of wizards, the feel I'm going for allows martial and divine types access to this knowledge as well...though it should cost them something.

I thought you'd be shooting for something along those lines QL.

However I only used the Wizard and Mage as examples because in my human world setting they are not magic-Wizards, but rather Wonder-worker Wizards whose capabilities are based on proto-science.

But as for Clerics well many of the best and original scientists and proto-scientists in the west came out of the church, and such men were priests, monks, etc. doing their own experimentation.

So personally I see no problem at all with Clerics being proto-scientists, and in my setting Clerics have access to many of the same types of knowledge as Wizards if they so desire, but the emphasis is different, of course, because the motivations vary form those of the Wizard. Though Mages are much closer to Clerics (specifically Monks) in motivation than are most Wizards, and they often study similar things. Like medicine, herbology, agricultural cycles, husbandry, etc. But there is no religious restriction per se on pursuing proto-science within the Church.

The problem with the church (in my setting, as well as in the wider world in certain eras of history) in regards to questions like this is institutional and traditional. For instance it was the pope who protected Galileo from the inquisition, and it was basically the college of Cardinals and many of these around the pope who wanted the ideas of Galileo suppressed, and him charged with heresy. The pope suggested that Galileo publish in secret and disseminate privately his theories and scientific enquiries, but many of the higher-ups in the church wanted him publicly tried for insisting his theories be publicly proclaimed.

So you have people in the church who admired Galileo and his theories, like the pope, and institutional tradition which was at odds with the idea of new scientific theories.

I mention that as an example to demonstrate how the church could be both the place that gave birth to so much of what is thought of as modern Western Science and scientific methods, and how it could have produced so many men like Mendel, and yet could have at the same time tried to suppress ideas even from extremely devout men, like Galileo. (I'm not specifically tying these examples to the time-frame you have in mind, juts citing broadly about general ideas.)

Which to me makes for a much, much more interesting setting background than most traditional D&D science/technological setting ideas, or most D&D religious settings.

Because within the same religious, political, cultural and social organizations and institutions you would have constantly competing agendas, and inter-organizational friction rather than "this church all bad, this church all good" or "this organization all progress, this organization all tradition." Differing impulses would constantly be competing for supremacy and support.

But as far as I'm concerned some clerics at least would be natural born proto-scientists, enthused by the idea of science being a tool used to investigate the mysteries of God. (And other clerics would be hostile to the very idea of investigating the mysteries of God, considering the very concept blasphemous or arrogant.)

The Wizard to me would be the guy, maybe extremely devout, like Newton, maybe not, who prefers to work outside the confines of the institution in order to make his own set of proto-scientific and scientific investigations. (And Newton left more writings on God, than he did on science.) So being a Wizard would say nothing at all about your religious inclinations per se, but it might say a lot about how you approach both the ideas of God and science. And how the Wizard sees himself in relation to the two.

Now as for warriors gaining access to such ideas, I' haven't really considered this per se, but I do allow warrior types in my setting to gain knowledge of, over time, things like the building of siege engines, mining, sapping, and other types of engineering skills that make them much more effective leaders, engineers, and warriors. So they gain basic knowledge of physics and physical engineering.

If that kinda suggestion helps you at all.

Anwho, good luck and let us know how you finally resolve it all for your setting.

 

[Achan hiArusa]

Most D&D games are Progress Level 2. I would probably make any would be "Inventor" take Knowledge (technology) and Profession (inventor). Then somewhat like GURPs I would require about 10 Knowledge (technology) checks to think of the new "invention" and 10 Profession (inventor) checks to produce a prototype. The DC would be 20 times the increase in Progress level (so 20 for PL 3, 40 for PL 4, etc), two successive failures ruins the project. The prototype will be faulty and will probably have a critical failure rate of 1-3 on a d20 when making skill checks and attack rolls with it. After that I would repeat the process to reduce the failure check by one point, but the user would have to make at least 2 or 3 critical failures under field conditions with it before those checks could be made . And some inventions (like a gun) would be multiple inventions (powder, bullet, and gun).

 

[Quickleaf]

Thanks for all the suggestions everybody! I could spend the whole summer followng up on all the resources offered in this thread (and believe me I'll try to read as much as I can)!

Great point about Galileo! Galileo's relationship with Pope Urban VIII was fascinating, but it also bears pointing out that the previous pope had Galileo under house arrest and when Galileo released Dialogue Concerning Two World Systems he alienated Pope Urban. Even with allies in the church, Galileo was treading on thin ice. That's the way I think a lot of the proto-science/alchemy will be viewed - accepted by a few enlightened forward-thinking elites in the church but otherwise discouraged or condemned outright.

I think where the rubber meets the road as far as the PCs are concerned is the laboratory, at least as a genre convention for the type of game I'm planning. A lot of the philosophy can be left in the background or be used as a plot device or else for role-playing. Skills can handle the rest.

But the laboratory, that's something special. So what can PCs do there?

Autopsy
With access to a corpse a character can make a Heal check to study the circumstances of death.

Forensics DC
Determine time of death 20
Determine cause of death 25
Every day since the death (max modifier +10 DC) +2 DC
Scene is outdoors +5 DC
Scene is disturbed +2 DC
Scene is extremely or deliberately disturbed +5 DC

Brew Potions
Brewing potions in a laboratory is efficient, reducing the cost by 10%.

Create Alchemical Mixtures
A character with the Alchemy feat may apply a known formula to create an alchemical mixture.

Monstrous Dissection
With access to a monster’s corpse, a character can dissect and analyze its physiology in order to better understand how the monster functions, gaining a +5 bonus on a Monster Knowledge check. In addition, a character can make a Heal check to perform a variety of procedures.

Dissection DC
Extract useful magical component or poison 20
Perform taxidermy to preserve the corpse 25
Preserve a piece of the monster containing one of its
powers or aura, useable as a consumable item with the effect lasting no longer than until the end of your next turn 15 +monster’s level

Pathology
A character with a tissue sample from a creature may make a Heal check to analyze it for disease.

Dissection DC
Determine presence of disease 15
Determine nature of disease 20
Develop inoculation against the disease providing
+5 bonus to defenses against acquiring it 15 + disease’s level

Treat Weapons
Within a laboratory it is possible to create silvered weapons, or develop and apply any number of oils useful in combat against particular foes.

 

[Jack7]

Autopsy
With access to a corpse a character can make a Heal check to study the circumstances of death.

Forensics DC
Determine time of death 20
Determine cause of death 25
Every day since the death (max modifier +10 DC) +2 DC
Scene is outdoors +5 DC
Scene is disturbed +2 DC
Scene is extremely or deliberately disturbed +5 DC

Brew Potions
Brewing potions in a laboratory is efficient, reducing the cost by 10%.

Create Alchemical Mixtures
A character with the Alchemy feat may apply a known formula to create an alchemical mixture.

Monstrous Dissection
With access to a monster’s corpse, a character can dissect and analyze its physiology in order to better understand how the monster functions, gaining a +5 bonus on a Monster Knowledge check. In addition, a character can make a Heal check to perform a variety of procedures.

Dissection DC
Extract useful magical component or poison 20
Perform taxidermy to preserve the corpse 25
Preserve a piece of the monster containing one of its
powers or aura, useable as a consumable item with the effect lasting no longer than until the end of your next turn 15 +monster’s level

Pathology
A character with a tissue sample from a creature may make a Heal check to analyze it for disease.

Dissection DC
Determine presence of disease 15
Determine nature of disease 20
Develop inoculation against the disease providing
+5 bonus to defenses against acquiring it 15 + disease’s level

Treat Weapons
Within a laboratory it is possible to create silvered weapons, or develop and apply any number of oils useful in combat against particular foes.

Those are superb ideas QL.
I think you should continue with more developments along these lines.

If I can still give out XPs then I will.
I especially like the autopsy suggestions.

 

[Quickleaf]

Thanks Jack. This has been a really interesting thread - I've both learned a TON and it's helped me to narrow my focus as far as what's relevant to the PCs.

In a standard D&D 4e game, you might wonder what the point of "extracting a magical component" or "performing taxidermy" might be. IMC a lot of rituals require magic components and several boost specific spells; additionally, one of the more unusual currencies are dead monsters (at least when there's a noble with a bounty) and some collector/hunter types with gruesome taste pay highly for a well preserved specimen. Not to mention the whole "fake a monster" routine that appears in Brotherhood of the Wolf.

I'd hoped to come up with something more interesting for Brew Potion involving an Arcana/Religion check, but for the life of me I was drawing a blank.

My favorite part is the monstrous dissection where you can presever a power/aura of the creature as a consumable item. That bit takes some creative DM interpretation, but you can have cool effects like the bottled scarab beetle of a lamia (cursed touch), or the eye of a bone devil (fiendish focus). I admit this is the one ability I'm a bit unsure of because it requires the DM's input.

I'll see what else I can come up with, but I think these are the main things.

 

[Baron Opal]

That's the way I think a lot of the proto-science/alchemy will be viewed - accepted by a few enlightened forward-thinking elites in the church but otherwise discouraged or condemned outright.

What if, however, the research confirms rather than denies established dogma? Part of the Church's stance was that Aristotle's theories were correct. If Galileo's theories reinforced Aristotlean physics rather than refuted them his treatment would be different, I think.

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

Thanks for all the suggestions everybody! I could spend the whole summer followng up on all the resources offered in this thread (and believe me I'll try to read as much as I can)!

Great point about Galileo! Galileo's relationship with Pope Urban VIII was fascinating, but it also bears pointing out that the previous pope had Galileo under house arrest and when Galileo released Dialogue Concerning Two World Systems he alienated Pope Urban. Even with allies in the church, Galileo was treading on thin ice. That's the way I think a lot of the proto-science/alchemy will be viewed - accepted by a few enlightened forward-thinking elites in the church but otherwise discouraged or condemned outright.

Well, but it's also worth pointing out that Gallileo's troubles occured long after the high middle ages and that there had been profound changes in the political, intellectual, and religious communities that made his persecution a reality.

At the least the high medieval church is going to be in a far stronger position politically and less inclined to these sorts of tactics.

Not to say that the church wasn't going to turn to remedy by force, but think about it this way:

- In the Renaissance Gallileo needed protection from the various factions within the church.

- In the high middle ages you have Bernard of Clairvaux arguing against crusades against the Albigensians.

The scope of clerical concern during the high medieval period is simply very different from the political troubles that affected the Renaissance.

Honestly, you're probably at more risk studying the humanities during the high medieval period than you are working in the sciences.

It's your game and you're free to evoke whatever feeling you want, but the church of the high middle ages is probably going to be more interested in sponsoring science as a means to desire social change than it is in controlling science as a potentially undesired source of social change.

Recall that during this period it isn't simply the case of an enlightened few among the church sponsoring technical progress but whole monastaries and monastic regimes engaging in the sort of technical experimentation that would result in the late medieval industrial revolution.

From a fantasy perspective this is going to be the period of the clockwork church and the debating priest than the banned books and secret humanists.

Even the inquisition is going to be more in the spirit of Holmes than Torquemada.

The persecution of the Templars actually ran into trouble when it attempted to include the inquisition rather than keeping it purely a question of state apparatuses and pressure on the Vatican.

I think where the rubber meets the road as far as the PCs are concerned is the laboratory, at least as a genre convention for the type of game I'm planning. A lot of the philosophy can be left in the background or be used as a plot device or else for role-playing. Skills can handle the rest.

But the laboratory, that's something special. So what can PCs do there?

Autopsy
With access to a corpse a character can make a Heal check to study the circumstances of death.

Forensics DC
Determine time of death 20
Determine cause of death 25
Every day since the death (max modifier +10 DC) +2 DC
Scene is outdoors +5 DC
Scene is disturbed +2 DC
Scene is extremely or deliberately disturbed +5 DC

Brew Potions
Brewing potions in a laboratory is efficient, reducing the cost by 10%.

Create Alchemical Mixtures
A character with the Alchemy feat may apply a known formula to create an alchemical mixture.

Monstrous Dissection
With access to a monster’s corpse, a character can dissect and analyze its physiology in order to better understand how the monster functions, gaining a +5 bonus on a Monster Knowledge check. In addition, a character can make a Heal check to perform a variety of procedures.

Dissection DC
Extract useful magical component or poison 20
Perform taxidermy to preserve the corpse 25
Preserve a piece of the monster containing one of its
powers or aura, useable as a consumable item with the effect lasting no longer than until the end of your next turn 15 +monster’s level

Pathology
A character with a tissue sample from a creature may make a Heal check to analyze it for disease.

Dissection DC
Determine presence of disease 15
Determine nature of disease 20
Develop inoculation against the disease providing
+5 bonus to defenses against acquiring it 15 + disease’s level

Treat Weapons
Within a laboratory it is possible to create silvered weapons, or develop and apply any number of oils useful in combat against particular foes.

Some of this could be done outside of the laboratory with a good kit, but I think this is an excellent start.

Have you seen Green Ronin's Medieval Player's Guide? It has a profoundly good approach to this period - even if it is for the last edition - and I find myself wondering if you couldn't adapt its 'Book Feats' system for scholastic debate to your work in Alchemy.