Kid Charlemagne
I am the Very Model of a Modern Moderator
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Science in High Middle Ages
- Thread starter Quickleaf
- Start date
Quickleaf
Legend
Love you Mr. Mod! 
Having some writer's block about how laboratories can serve the PCs so I've turned to 4th edition Ars Magica's laboratory chapter to mine ideas and the only thing I picked up was the idea of experimentation which is actually pretty neat.
Trying to distill the history into something the PCs can interact with.
(hey I made a pun
)
Having some writer's block about how laboratories can serve the PCs so I've turned to 4th edition Ars Magica's laboratory chapter to mine ideas and the only thing I picked up was the idea of experimentation which is actually pretty neat.
Trying to distill the history into something the PCs can interact with.
(hey I made a pun
)Dr. Strangemonkey
First Post
Love you Mr. Mod!
Having some writer's block about how laboratories can serve the PCs so I've turned to 4th edition Ars Magica's laboratory chapter to mine ideas and the only thing I picked up was the idea of experimentation which is actually pretty neat.
Trying to distill the history into something the PCs can interact with.
(hey I made a pun
Well you could always approach it from a narrative perspective. There's nothing wrong with combining that with historical inspiration as Weapons of the Gods illustrated with Kung Fu.
I could be wrong on your writer's block here but it sounds like you have an atmospheric idea for the labs and are trying to reconcile that with the actualy evidence you have for labratory usage?
What exactly are you blocking on?
Quickleaf
Legend
Well, I feel like I'm neglecting the use of other skills besides Heal in the laboratory. Perception and Thievery come to mind.
Yeah, you're absolutely right, I'm trying to reconcile the realities of what occured in a laboratory with a strong thematic interpretation tied to my setting.
Yeah, you're absolutely right, I'm trying to reconcile the realities of what occured in a laboratory with a strong thematic interpretation tied to my setting.
Dr. Strangemonkey
First Post
Well, I absolutely think there's more you could do with a laboratory than heal.
The alchemy rules in the adventurer's vault feature a lot and a lot of theivery so you've got that read written.
Were I working this I'd be tempted to even run it more broadly and say that particular processes work in a way analagous to books in the medieval scholarship.
That is any skill from optics to poetry to warfare could benefit from the proper general text.
So from that you say that most skills have a basic text that serves as the touchstone for most scholarship. So - to borrow from Green Ronin - you create a Text Feat called Peter Lombard's Sentences that impacts religion as the basic text.
For each skill you can also create a Procedure that represents the experimental side of the scholarship.
So for Heal you would create the Dissection Procedure feat. Or whatever you want to say is the basic savant procedure of the period. Maybe make dissection the academic healing procedure and sanitation the Lorist healing procedure.
The basic function of these would be to act as a sort of 'extra-trained' option on a skill. They would give skills additional function and they would function as a bonus to skill checks in skill challenges as long as people had access to a laboratory while making the skill challenge.
The alchemy rules in the adventurer's vault feature a lot and a lot of theivery so you've got that read written.
Were I working this I'd be tempted to even run it more broadly and say that particular processes work in a way analagous to books in the medieval scholarship.
That is any skill from optics to poetry to warfare could benefit from the proper general text.
So from that you say that most skills have a basic text that serves as the touchstone for most scholarship. So - to borrow from Green Ronin - you create a Text Feat called Peter Lombard's Sentences that impacts religion as the basic text.
For each skill you can also create a Procedure that represents the experimental side of the scholarship.
So for Heal you would create the Dissection Procedure feat. Or whatever you want to say is the basic savant procedure of the period. Maybe make dissection the academic healing procedure and sanitation the Lorist healing procedure.
The basic function of these would be to act as a sort of 'extra-trained' option on a skill. They would give skills additional function and they would function as a bonus to skill checks in skill challenges as long as people had access to a laboratory while making the skill challenge.
Jack7
First Post
To take it in a completely different direction, labs are excellent invention workshops. And most primitive labs were exactly that.
Science without a technology and without an ability to invent new things or improve upon old things isn't much of a real science.
For instance with thievery, one could invent new or improved tools, climbing bars (a real world invention of my own), devices which improve hearing and eyesight, and so forth and so on.
Invent lenses which amplify or magnify, and so forth and so on.
And in the past my Wizards have all been chemistry experts (because in real life I do a lot of chemical experimentation).
So in addition to doing alchemical experimentation a lab could be used to gather and test chemicals and to purify substances and make them potent.
But speaking of that labs and workshops can be dangerous places as well.
How many times have I done dangerous things, intentionally or unwittingly? I doubt I could count.
Now imagine proto-scientists just starting to develop a database of what does what, and how? KA-BLOOEY!!
Science without a technology and without an ability to invent new things or improve upon old things isn't much of a real science.
For instance with thievery, one could invent new or improved tools, climbing bars (a real world invention of my own), devices which improve hearing and eyesight, and so forth and so on.
Invent lenses which amplify or magnify, and so forth and so on.
And in the past my Wizards have all been chemistry experts (because in real life I do a lot of chemical experimentation).
So in addition to doing alchemical experimentation a lab could be used to gather and test chemicals and to purify substances and make them potent.
But speaking of that labs and workshops can be dangerous places as well.
How many times have I done dangerous things, intentionally or unwittingly? I doubt I could count.
Now imagine proto-scientists just starting to develop a database of what does what, and how? KA-BLOOEY!!
Last edited:
Baron Opal
First Post
I was designing a natural philosopher class for my game although it never got off the ground. Designers have often classed alchemy as a subset of wizardry, astrology as a subset of divine power and simply made thematically appropriate spells for the two classes. For my class I wanted a discrete set of abilities that were definatly not spells. The theme of the natural philosopher was the manipulation of the natural world, it's resources and laws, to the benefit of manipulator.
One of my main inspirations was from Ars Magica. The rules for natural philosophy in the Mysteries book (4th ed?) had the philosopher use a lot of equipment and time to produce effects. Far longer than any wizard, but the use of philosophy had the "weight of the world" behind it. It was very difficult to magically dispel since it had far more than the philosopher's will maintaining the effect.
At minimum, alchemy and astrology would be the backbone for the class. Given some of the advanced things that I wanted to do and the setting I have, clockworks are also involved. One of the things I thought of as I was daydreaming the class was the movie the Dark Crystal. Both the skekTek the Scientist’s lab and Aughra’s Observatory should be possible outcomes of the path of natural philosophy.
Source Material
The Compleat Alchemist, by Bard Games
Occult Lore, by Atlas Games
The Mideval Player’s Handbook, by Green Ronin
Eberron Campaign Setting, by Wizards of the Coast
Steam and Steel, by Christopher Allen
Mechamancy I & II, by Robert Sullivan
The skeleton of the class is from the Complete Alchemist. In this volume you have a class according to first edition rules (sorta) that shows development of basic alchemical materials, devices, magical distillations, grand devices and finally homonunculi. Occult Lore has chapers, and even whole classes sometimes, on alchemy, astrology, geomancy and other. From the Mideval Players Handbook come more information of alchemy and some astrology. Eberron has the artificer, naturally. While their abilities are spell based, mechanically, they have the concept of the artificer’s reserve which becomes important later. The pdfs inform the device aspect of natural philosophy. Now that I think of it, the Iron Kingdoms setting has rather mechanistic view of magic as well. It’s overly complicated, in my opinion, but it would be exceptional for idea mining.
The big problem with the class as I was envisioning it was that it was equipment centered. Regardless of the magic item assumptions inherent in the system, other character classes are about what they can do, not what they have. An alchemist, or philosopher, class is dependant on the stuff they make, which in turn is dependant on the amount of wealth in the campaign. In a wealth poor campaign this concept will be underpowered. Too much disposable income and it will dominate. I was thinking of using the artificer’s xp credit as a gauge of items that they always had or could keep stable through sheer will, but I never nailed it down.
One of my main inspirations was from Ars Magica. The rules for natural philosophy in the Mysteries book (4th ed?) had the philosopher use a lot of equipment and time to produce effects. Far longer than any wizard, but the use of philosophy had the "weight of the world" behind it. It was very difficult to magically dispel since it had far more than the philosopher's will maintaining the effect.
At minimum, alchemy and astrology would be the backbone for the class. Given some of the advanced things that I wanted to do and the setting I have, clockworks are also involved. One of the things I thought of as I was daydreaming the class was the movie the Dark Crystal. Both the skekTek the Scientist’s lab and Aughra’s Observatory should be possible outcomes of the path of natural philosophy.
Source Material
The Compleat Alchemist, by Bard Games
Occult Lore, by Atlas Games
The Mideval Player’s Handbook, by Green Ronin
Eberron Campaign Setting, by Wizards of the Coast
Steam and Steel, by Christopher Allen
Mechamancy I & II, by Robert Sullivan
The skeleton of the class is from the Complete Alchemist. In this volume you have a class according to first edition rules (sorta) that shows development of basic alchemical materials, devices, magical distillations, grand devices and finally homonunculi. Occult Lore has chapers, and even whole classes sometimes, on alchemy, astrology, geomancy and other. From the Mideval Players Handbook come more information of alchemy and some astrology. Eberron has the artificer, naturally. While their abilities are spell based, mechanically, they have the concept of the artificer’s reserve which becomes important later. The pdfs inform the device aspect of natural philosophy. Now that I think of it, the Iron Kingdoms setting has rather mechanistic view of magic as well. It’s overly complicated, in my opinion, but it would be exceptional for idea mining.
The big problem with the class as I was envisioning it was that it was equipment centered. Regardless of the magic item assumptions inherent in the system, other character classes are about what they can do, not what they have. An alchemist, or philosopher, class is dependant on the stuff they make, which in turn is dependant on the amount of wealth in the campaign. In a wealth poor campaign this concept will be underpowered. Too much disposable income and it will dominate. I was thinking of using the artificer’s xp credit as a gauge of items that they always had or could keep stable through sheer will, but I never nailed it down.
Quickleaf
Legend
Hey Baron, your wife's quote is great.
I've definitely been thinking along the same track - Ars Magica, Medieval Player's Manual, and Occult Lore are all great resources. I'll have to look for the Complete Alchemist.
That's something I've been tossing back and forth, and settled on a broader "Inquisitive" concept that I'm going to explore more in the 4th edition house rules forum. My inspirations are Sherlock Holmes, The Witcher, Van Helsing, and Brother Cadfael. The end is uncovering the truth, one of the means is alchemy, but keen observation skills, a trained memory, deductive reasoning, and some fancy combat training round out the idea.
Baron Opal
First Post
Thank you. Quick as a whip, she is. Keeps me on my toes.
Do you have Arcana Unearthed or Arcana Evolved, by Monte Cook? There are some good plunderable ideas there too. One of the reasons that I am looking forward to the PHB2 is to look at the bard class and see what kind of informational resources he has. Bardic knowledge has been a resource in the game for a long time. A philosopher utilizing memory palace techniques could be a stand in for that or an akashic, a class from Arcana Unearthed. Akashics are trained to connect to the collective unconscoius, basically, and can glean useful scraps of information.
Now, that's not really applicable to the philosopher but by restructuring the concept I think it would be very thematically appropriate. A philosopher never forgets...
Of course, I'm in danger of falling into the trap of making the philosopher overpowered, but I can trim later. And, I find making a class in 4e more intimidating from a workload standpoint than I do for 3e.
Do you have Arcana Unearthed or Arcana Evolved, by Monte Cook? There are some good plunderable ideas there too. One of the reasons that I am looking forward to the PHB2 is to look at the bard class and see what kind of informational resources he has. Bardic knowledge has been a resource in the game for a long time. A philosopher utilizing memory palace techniques could be a stand in for that or an akashic, a class from Arcana Unearthed. Akashics are trained to connect to the collective unconscoius, basically, and can glean useful scraps of information.
Now, that's not really applicable to the philosopher but by restructuring the concept I think it would be very thematically appropriate. A philosopher never forgets...
Of course, I'm in danger of falling into the trap of making the philosopher overpowered, but I can trim later. And, I find making a class in 4e more intimidating from a workload standpoint than I do for 3e.
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