SCOOP! Wizards to release 3E Draconomicon

rounser said:

Ah yes, the old crunch/fluff nutshell gets trotted out again.

The kind of content the Draconomicon will provide will almost assuredly be fluff vacuum-packed inside crunch, just like most crunch which isn't pure mechanics. You'll be buying "literalist cliches", but they'll have numbers attached, which will stroke your powergaming pleasure centre with new feats for dragons and dragonslayer prestige classes. Don't pretend otherwise.

Uh, yeah, which is why I made the comment about 'mechanical payoff'. Giving us the standard cliche, but also the ability to apply it within the game in a satisfying 'non fiat' way. Now you have yet to explain what is wrong with this, other than the fact that the rest of the buying public doesn't need to have their imaginations continuously stoked with the same tripe. :)
 

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Perhaps I was beign hasty with the d20 comment. I should have said that Wotc is able to put out relativly balanced mechanics far more consistently than the overwhelming majority of d20 publishers (even the top grade) and have a far better grasp of the mechanics on the whole. Enough qualification? :)
 

jasamcarl said:
Perhaps I was beign hasty with the d20 comment. I should have said that Wotc is able to put out relativly balanced mechanics far more consistently than the overwhelming majority of d20 publishers (even the top grade) and have a far better grasp of the mechanics on the whole. Enough qualification? :)

Almost. Strike overwhelming, and I think I could agree with your statement.
 

jasamcarl said:
Perhaps I was beign hasty with the d20 comment. I should have said that Wotc is able to put out relativly balanced mechanics far more consistently than the overwhelming majority of d20 publishers (even the top grade) and have a far better grasp of the mechanics on the whole. Enough qualification? :)

Almost. Strike overwhelming, and I think I could agree with your statement. It surprises me how WotC staffers sometimes fail to understand their own mechanics. Frex, Skips ruling about burst weapons which Monte said was clearly not his intention, and the creation of a class in the Minds Eye that has a class ability that all psions can do anyways...
 


Now you have yet to explain what is wrong with this, other than the fact that the rest of the buying public doesn't need to have their imaginations continuously stoked with the same tripe.
There's nothing wrong with it, but that doesn't mean there's any existing need in the game for it either - it was the other guy who dragged it into a crunch vs. fluff discussion, I was simply rebutting him on the same foundation he was arguing from.

The reason why I say the game doesn't need this book is because it doesn't. The game has no hole to fill with regard to detailing dragons to the umpteenth degree, whereas it does with regards to, say, mass combat. That doesn't mean it shouldn't exist, and people will buy it....but in my view this book is being marketed towards the same sorts of people who buy books on 1001 drow powerups and god stat droolfests. They just seem extraneous when there are "better" themes for books to do that would probably also sell. That's just a personal suspicion and a broad generalisation, mind you, and may not be warranted in the case of individuals.

This theme will sell, but surely there are other themes out there that would fill an existing need where the game is lacking, and sell. To think of another one alongside the mass combat example - Dancey's suggestion of another core book which describes the game design principles behind 3E, allowing for more confident tinkering - a "Designer's Guide". People have been asking for that, and knowing how much gamers love to tinker it would surely sell well, and it would help their game more than a book on dragon feats...
 
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Kai Lord, I'm completely lost as to what point you're trying to make with those yuan-ti pictures. You seem to be saying that the quality of the artwork was deteriorated over time, and are showing two pictures to prove it. However, since the first picture was from Savage Species and the second was from Races of Faerun which were released one month apart I fail to see how you can claim that. In all likelihood, both of those pieces of art were comissioned at about the same time. Denis Cramer, the artist on the second piece, has been a major contributor to D&D artwork since shortly after the very initial release of products.

Any point you're trying to make, unless I'm completely missing the point, is nullified by the timing.
 

As I stated earlier, Joshua, RoF is the first product to showcase the results of Wizards' artistic house cleaning a few months back. Since the artists are commissioned months in advance, we're just now seeing the results with our own eyes.

Savage Species was the last product in development before the announcement, so it doesn't matter if it only came out a month a month before RoF. The line was drawn between those two products, and serve as a perfect "illustration" of my point.
 

Anyone here remember the boxed set containing loads of Dragon stuff for 2 ed. ? Dragon as PC's, those Dragon Islands & Dragon deities & stuff. That one rocked..... IMO
 

The Serge said:
And I'll say that I have a great deal more faith in WotC's material than I do in most (not all) of the 3rd party publishers. Does this mean that WotC is infallible? Certainly not. There are still magic items, spells, and even PrCs that seem a little out of wack. But, my observation (and those of the people with whom I play) have revealed that WotC seems to be a great deal more "cautious," and therefore tends to be more "balanced." However, that does not mean that WotC's material is necessarily superior or the be all, end all.

"Official" is often a crutch for people afraid to experiment. Yes, there are companies out there that have produced really shoddy material. And, I've drastically reduced the amount of 3rd party stuff I've bought as a result... but, I do think that "official" has nothing to do with it. When people start vomiting out that word, it's been my experience that these are the same people that want to argue with the DM when s/he offers something new or different (on the surface) from what appears in the books. It reduces the ability for DMs and creators to look to other sources, who may be as balanced and as playtesting oriented as WotC, for alternatives.

It's like you're living inside my head ;): these comments perfectly sum up my perspective on the quality of WotC vs. third party material and the official/unofficial debate at hand.

When I started playing 3e, I also started indexing rules material online. Since I wanted my indexes to be as complete as possible, I bought every book that had new feats, PrCs, classes and skills in it as they came out. This gave me a very broad exposure to 3e material over the first year and a half after the PHB came out, and it meant I built up an excellent collection of good books -- but also a large number of really shoddy products, most of which seemed to be from the same companies.

After I stopped indexing things, I sold off all of the books I didn't like and started being very picky about my 3e purchases. In general, I know I can pick up a WotC book and use it without worrying too much about unbalanced rules, overpowered feats, etc. There are some third party publishers for whom this is also true -- Green Ronin, Malhavoc and Privateer Press, for example -- but the great majority of products simply don't have the same level of consistency and quality.

Does this mean that everything WotC, GR, etc. put out is perfect? Of course not -- Sword & Fist and Song & Silence were both pretty shabby, as was GR's Assassin's Handbook, etc. But my expectations are still different when I pick up a WotC book than they are when I pick up a Fantasy Flight book, for example. FFG makes some great stuff for 3e, but IMO a decent portion of it isn't terribly balanced or well thought-out. If I buy a Legends & Lairs book, I know I'll be able to use most of it as is -- but I'll also have to scrutinize it carefully for problems. The same goes for AEG's "one word" series, or the crunchier Scarred Lands books, etc.

I don't mind doing this kind of work when I buy a new 3e book, but I do mind when I have to do what I perceive as too much work. I'm sure the definition of "too much work" varies from person to person, and I expect I'm somewhere in the middle of the spectrum -- I avoid books that will require a complete overhaul to be useful, but I don't require 100% plug-and-play material either.
 

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