Most of the errata isn't correcting errors, the game plays just fine without most of it, the errata is mainly a rebalancing of the game as it evolves and corner case abuses come to light. Without the character builder to make it easy to manage these changes I suspect the list would be a lot shorter.
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Scott Thorne, a retailer, comments on recent events
- Thread starter xechnao
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Most of the errata isn't correcting errors, the game plays just fine without most of it, the errata is mainly a rebalancing of the game as it evolves and corner case abuses come to light. Without the character builder to make it easy to manage these changes I suspect the list would be a lot shorter.
That doesn't change Bacris' statement:
...one bit because in an RPG, part of QC is playtesting, where you find things like balance issues. Simply put, as the RPG industry's top dog, WotC has no excuse for the amount and nature of 4Ed errata.
Or do you also give companies like Microsoft a pass when products like their X-box hit failure rates of 24-52%?
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The size and resources of WotC has allowed it do publish this level of errata, something many game companies don't bother to do. This all looks like WotC bashing, the level errata has almost no effect in game.
I imagine the level of scrutiny some people are demanding would dramatically increase costs and reduce publication rates, nothing is free.
I imagine the level of scrutiny some people are demanding would dramatically increase costs and reduce publication rates, nothing is free.
Really? Then explain to me why Blizzard continually needs to rebalance World of Warcraft all the time? Even after new patches have been on the Public Test Realm for weeks on end... theoretically gaining all the beta info they need to get their patch "right"... even after the patch gets released to the general playing audience there are still constant tweaks and hotfixes that occur to the game itself every Tuesday. Why? Because you can't find everything even WITH beta-testing. Balance issues are constantly changing, especially once you move from a smaller beta test sample size to everybody playing with it.
And Blizzard is their industry's 'top dog' too. In actuality, a much, much bigger dog that WotC is. Are you going to say that they have 'no excuse' for needing to do all their hotfixes after the fact?
Chainsaw Mage
First Post
The beauty of it is that you don't need a pirated copy; the older rules are widely available on amazon.com, eBay, and your local used bookstore / FLGS.
Last week I bought three copies of the AD&D 2e Player's Handbook (one in MINT condition--had never been purchased before!) at my FLGS in his used section.
Long live OOP games!
Wednesday Boy
The Nerd WhoFell to Earth
Exactamundo.
And how do you know DDI is not the primary revenue stream? It seems to me that you're making just as much of an assumption as the rest of us supposedly are. The fact is... WE DON'T KNOW. None of us do. However, that doesn't stop people like Treebore in the second post of this thread saying...
"WOTC is struggling, we know it, some of us know why. Now the question is, will WOTC figure out how to win us back before Hasbro shuts them down?"
It's THESE kinds of posts that I'll come in and comment in the thread on. Because Treebore is just as clueless as the rest of us. So when he attempts to say definitively that 'WotC is struggling' and that 'he knows it' and 'knows why'... I'll show up to let him know that perhaps things are not so black and white as he believe them to be.
I can't speak for other people... but my comments are never strictly 'WOTC RULEZ! RAH-RAH-RAH!' They are almost always more moderate comments that give possible explanations as to the methods WotC is taking. Many people here can't help but talk in hyperbole, and that everything that occurs is either 'WOTC'S DEATH KNELL, SPIRALING OUT OF CONTROL!' or 'WOTC IS FANTASTIC AND DOING EVERYTHING RIGHT!' A few of us... tends to try and find the middle ground between both extremes. Granted, I sometimes get myself a little more worked up than I should. But I fully admit that I know just as little as everybody else, I'm trying to use the evidence presented to find likely reasons why, that don't devolve into it being just because the company itself is stupid and can't do anything right.
And this is where I would mirror my comments from my very first post in this thread. So what? What does it mean? It means WotC doesn't do adventures (that often). Okay, fine. They don't tend to publish adventures.
HOWEVER... certain people will then take this fact and try and use it for evidence as to why WotC is 'failing' in their business. And they'll go on and on in post after post saying that because WotC doesn't do adventures 'they obviously have no idea what they are doing', and 'the company sucks', and 'I hope someone buys the brand who cares about the game!' and other such nonsense. And don't even get me started on the whole "release old books in PDF form" talking point that can't help but get certain people so worked up you'd think WotC was the Antichrist or something for not doing it.
Azgulor... if you really think people keep coming down hard on Paizo and what they've done is a 'fluke'... try taking a look at the dozen threads that crop up that chastise Wizards of the Coast after almost every single thing they do. I think you'll find that the rancor is probably equally thick on both sides.
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DEFCON 1, chill out. I was responding to a ridiculous assertion that the only way Paizo could do as well as 4e was for WotC to surrender the print format to Paizo. Companies look to add revenue streams. They don't replace existing ones lightly. And despite the current predictions of doom, WotC's current publishing schedule, or DDI's subscriber base, there's nothing definitive to suggest that A) WotC is abandoning printed 4e products or B) the # of DDI subscribers is the total sum of the 4e player base.
Logically, if B isn't true, WotC is not going to do A and abandon that presumably larger pool of customers. (Unless they learned business strategy from the Shadowrun core rulebook section on megacorps or Wikipedia...)
My last post was a response to your claim I was asserting greater knowledge on the subject, when I wasn't. Other than addressing that claim, I didn't say anything about any of your posts in this thread.
I've also said, again - in numerous threads, that in general I don't understand why the Edition Wars continue as strongly as they do. By my estimation, both sides "won" by having games in print. The two largest camps have 4e & Pathfinder. Then there's the old-school revival crowd, other OGL games, etc.
As for that 2-way street, bro, I've taken fire like yours from the pro-4e camp while saying 4e is doing well almost as often as when I've had a criticism of WotC. Yeah, there's trigger-happy fans on both sides of the aisle. My personal experience is that a lot of folks on the 4e side have hair-triggers, however. Just because I don't care for 4e and think WotC has made some bonehead moves doesn't mean I don't agree with a 4e fan or three from time to time.
Closing thought: If the number of DDI subscribers DOES equate to 50% or more of the active 4e customer base, D&D 4e is in big trouble. As I still don't think that's the case, however, my comments above stand.
Logically, if B isn't true, WotC is not going to do A and abandon that presumably larger pool of customers. (Unless they learned business strategy from the Shadowrun core rulebook section on megacorps or Wikipedia...)
My last post was a response to your claim I was asserting greater knowledge on the subject, when I wasn't. Other than addressing that claim, I didn't say anything about any of your posts in this thread.
I've also said, again - in numerous threads, that in general I don't understand why the Edition Wars continue as strongly as they do. By my estimation, both sides "won" by having games in print. The two largest camps have 4e & Pathfinder. Then there's the old-school revival crowd, other OGL games, etc.
As for that 2-way street, bro, I've taken fire like yours from the pro-4e camp while saying 4e is doing well almost as often as when I've had a criticism of WotC. Yeah, there's trigger-happy fans on both sides of the aisle. My personal experience is that a lot of folks on the 4e side have hair-triggers, however. Just because I don't care for 4e and think WotC has made some bonehead moves doesn't mean I don't agree with a 4e fan or three from time to time.
Closing thought: If the number of DDI subscribers DOES equate to 50% or more of the active 4e customer base, D&D 4e is in big trouble. As I still don't think that's the case, however, my comments above stand.
BryonD
Hero
Exactly right.
I've made the point before that I'm certain DDI is making really good money, but if we as fans are really interested in how popular a game is then everyone should hope that the DDI subscription is just a part of the tip of the iceberg.
Now people have moved on to saying that the decline in book sales is simply because of DDI subscriptions. Well, that would mean that the total number of people playing has plummeted.
Subscription and online business models are great. I support the idea of both and look forward to more evolution in that direction. And, from a business sense, (assuming the same cost either way) total revenue is all that matters. So we can easily say that 4E/DDI is a financial success.
However, despite DEFCON1's insistence of total cluelessness, I feel that there is a very reasonable ground for saying that the steady stream of circumstantial data points, combined with highly numerous anecdotes, provides a reasonable approximation that need not be absolute certainty to still be fairly comfortable.
And as a gaming fan who has no skin in WotC's actual profits, WotC making a lot of money by using a great business model and fewer fans is not equal (to me) as WotC making a lot of money by having a massive fan base.
And I also am left to wonder just how huge they could be with the DDI business model AND the huge fanbase of systems past.
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