Scoundrel Rogue Playtest Up

[Zaran]

I think it was fine the way it was. How dare rogues do striker damage without sneak attack!

 

[john112364]

It would be more a matter of RAW, where a feat which actually had the term "rogue weapon talent" in its text would no longer technically apply to a Scoundrel which has "scoundrel weapon talent" instead. Obviously it would be easy enough for people to ignore that, but you get into all the usual ugly debates about RAW vs RAI and playing in official venues.

*Sigh*
You're probably right. Sounds like more errata to fix a simple name change. When did the dnd community get so picky. (Don't answer that. It was rhetorical )

 

[MrMyth]

My argument is more philosophical than power level related. I don't really care if they reign in the power in some fashion. It was a really potent power, possibly still is, but that's not the point. The main question is, is it a good fit for the rogue? In its current incarnation, I'd be inclined to say no, hence my proposed tweak.

I'm sure many will still use blinding barrage, action point sneak attack sequence. But my feedback would be that as a striker daily, it needs a little more punch, at least against one target.

It's a reasonable suggestion - on the other hand, the rogue has other dailies that can be chosen for good damage. Sometimes dailies are there to emphasize the core role of the class, other times to expand their options - as long as you have the option of both, I think that's fine.

Now, that said, I'm not claiming you can't make a good case that it would remain balanced with some additional damage for one target. But I think the claim that the rogue is a striker, hence all dailies must do 'x' amount of damage... doesn't quite cut it for me.

 

[DracoSuave]

My argument is more philosophical than power level related. I don't really care if they reign in the power in some fashion. It was a really potent power, possibly still is, but that's not the point. The main question is, is it a good fit for the rogue? In its current incarnation, I'd be inclined to say no, hence my proposed tweak.

AoE Combat Advantage giver. Blind everyone and you can hide without worrying about cover. Controllers don't get level 1s this good.

I'm sure many will still use blinding barrage, action point sneak attack sequence. But my feedback would be that as a striker daily, it needs a little more punch, at least against one target.

As a striker daily it shouldn't be better than most controller dailies at control. 2[w] AoE is pretty huge for a single target striker, and the way I see it, you can have the blinded, OR the damage. Both should not be a rogue thing.

 

[Droogie128]

Of course I would, but Rogues at present have a virtual monopoly on everything assassins are supposed to do. Cunning Sneak is an extraordinarily powerful ability attached to a class that already gets a lot of extraordinarily powerful abilities.

It's not that strong. It is still substantially weaker than Artful Dodger or Brutal Scoundrel. Sure, it's stronger than Ruthless Ruffian, but that is just terrible.

Stealth is easy to get without CS.

 

[Mengu]

AoE Combat Advantage giver. Blind everyone and you can hide without worrying about cover. Controllers don't get level 1s this good.

As a striker daily it shouldn't be better than most controller dailies at control. 2[w] AoE is pretty huge for a single target striker, and the way I see it, you can have the blinded, OR the damage. Both should not be a rogue thing.

Then nerf the control, leave the striking. Rogues are strikers, not controllers. Blinded at level 1 is really too good. They shot themselves in the foot with naming that one Blinding Barrage. Anyway, it's a moot point, you can obviously pick something else if you're looking for damage like Duelist's Prowess or Press the Advantage, and I don't mind the rogue having the control versatility. I'm just not on board with the design philosophy. Dealing normal damage to one thing in the blast isn't going to break the power any more. It would be sort of like the Runepriest's level 1 daily, one target takes lots of damage and is blinded, your future targets take a couple extra points of damage, and your healing becomes more potent for the encounter, it's a good leader/striker daily. The rogue's blinding barrage can be a good controller/striker daily.

 

[Saeviomagy]

AoE Combat Advantage giver. Blind everyone and you can hide without worrying about cover. Controllers don't get level 1s this good.

Looking through all the controller dailies, there are very, very few close blasts. I'd say that silent malediction is pretty close (a close blast stun with the side effect of dazing yourself), and it does the same damage that blinding barrage will in the hands of a rogue who's emphasising damage over accuracy (2d6).

As a striker daily it shouldn't be better than most controller dailies at control. 2[w] AoE is pretty huge for a single target striker, and the way I see it, you can have the blinded, OR the damage. Both should not be a rogue thing.

2[w] AOE might be huge for other strikers, but bear in mind that for a rogue [w] is likely to be a d4 or d6. d8 if you spend a feat on a dark-sun specific weapon.

TBH I'm not too worried about my rogue losing 5 damage on this power. The aoe blind is still worth it.

 

[Kzach]

Of course I would, but Rogues at present have a virtual monopoly on everything assassins are supposed to do. Cunning Sneak is an extraordinarily powerful ability attached to a class that already gets a lot of extraordinarily powerful abilities.

This is why assassin should've just been a sub-class of rogue.

Last week, I reopened my subscription, and two or three characters changed class names. One was the rogue, that changed to the scoundrel. Is this expected? It was very confusing to me I look through the powers and didn't see much change from the previous character sheet.

It's stupid, unnecessary, and confusing. So yes, you should expect that from WotC. Always.

 

[Kzach]

D'oh!

 

[Destil]

They didn't fix crossbows/shortbows at all (sneak attack now allows "a light blade, a hand crossbow, a shortbow, or a sling" but rogue powers generally require "You must be wielding a crossbow, a light blade, or a sling").

That needs to be fixed to use the same list.

Ideally it should be called something like 'Rogue Weapons' so that feats/features that interact with the list can be simpler. But I'll settle for them simply fixing the bug they introduced with the thief. Rogues should have a decent dedicated ranged weapon option, they just need to pick between the crossbow and the shortbow.

Blinding Barrage's biggest problem was that it was really, really hard to upgrade the power because it was awesome, generally waiting for Dazing Barrage at 19th. This may not fix that, rogue ranged weapons don't have options over d6s... or something. Who can tell with the issue above?

Barrage can just be 1[W] (no dex mod) and it'll be fine. The new version is also stupid because why use anything but a dagger for it if you can't get [W]s, meaning your weapon choice is pointless.

EDIT: Man, they called out low slash, too. My brutal rogue took that power and I was happy with it for two sessions before I even noticed it was a minor action...