scouts and skirmishing

Synthetik Fish said:
To be honest, it seemed more like you were ALREADY set against using the character/class, and came online more for justification than anything else. IMHO.

I agree with not allowing stuff that is unbalancing, or overly powerful... but if it doesn't make a difference sometimes you just have to say screw it and allow it, for role-playing purposes if nothing else (I'm big on role-playing and incorporating my character's abilities into his personalities as much as possible.)



1) I'm not the original poster.

2) The orignal post has the DM asking, in essense, "Do I understand how this Skirmish ability works?" It becomes clear that he expected it to be a melee ability, and has a hard time conceiving of skirmish as a ranged ability as well. He then explicitly asks for help to conceive of the ability in this way. In no way can this series of events rationally be seen as being already set against the character/class.

3) I'm not Canadian. I am an American living in Canada. (Directed toward you, Mike ;) )

4) Role playing and game balance are two different things. I would be more likely to allow a class with balance issues in for role playing reasons than a balanced class that didn't fit my vision of the world. Otherwise, why not allow Jedi Guardian?


RC
 

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Storm Raven said:
Go reread his justifications. These weren't them. His problem was simply a failure of imagination, even after ideas had been given to him, he was still "unable to wrap his head around" a relatively simple concept.


PARAPHRASING:

"I can't visualize how this would fit into my conception of my game world."

"We visualize it as X."

"We visualize it as Y."

"We visualize it as Z."

"Sorry, while I like Z, I'm still not sure that it would fit into my game."

Sorry, but to me an appropriate response would be: "Okay." An inappropriate response would be.....well, you only have to scroll through this thread to find a few. :uhoh:


RC
 


werk said:
Oh, so the problem is that you think skirmish is sneak attack. It is not. It has nothing to do with soft spots or vital areas or any of that rogue stuff. This is a NEW CLASS not a rogue played differently, despite what the familiar mechanics may lead you to believe.

No Werk.

I don't think it is sneak attack. If it was sneak attack I wouldn't have a problem with it. ;)

The portion you quoted was my explaining why the explanation proposed by Storm King for how Skirmish damage works descriptively does not cut it for me.

Nothing to do with vital areas? Is the following text in the ability description?:

"The scout must be able to see the target well enough to pick a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot"

Does it work against targets not subject to crits?
 

First off Voadam - it is your campaign and you can do anything you want to in it - you don't need our permission or blessing of your house-rules or the way yuo run your game.

The scout is indeed a non-core class, being in a supplemental book so, IMO, like presitgue classes its inclusion is soley up to the DM.


Voadam said:
Having read everything in this thread I still don't buy the movement creates opportunity as the opponent is caught off guard argument. It breaks down completely when the opponent is helpless, under a hold person, caught asleep, etc. Under the mechanic, the opponent is irrelevant, they just need vitals the scout can get to. The reasoning offered only makes the scout as good as he is against a helpless opponent. That does not correspond to the mechanic.

Now take a target who is paralyzed. He cannot prepare for the attack. So the scout attacks him and can reach his vitals. No extra damage. The scout has to move before he can hit the paralyzed guy's vitals and do extra damage by catching the paralyzed victim unprepared.

So when the scout moves the paralyzed guy is less prepared, so the scout does extra damage. However if the scout does not move, the paralyzed guy is more prepared and the scout therefore can not hit his vitals?


This I think is the crux of the problem with your understanding of the class' ability. It has nothing to do with catching the foe off guard - that is what a rogue does. The skirmish ability has nothing do with the opponent being denied his Dex bonus (which is what the catching him off guard boils down to). If you keep thinking of it in this way you will never see why or how it works.


I have to go along with the deduction that you were looking for someone to provide you with some rationalization for not allowing the class to be used, since you had seemingly already made up your mind on it - this really wasn't a question to be answered.

There have been several different explanations given for why the skirmish ability could be justified, but you seem to have fixed on the one that parrallels the rogue's ability that is based on catching the opponent off guard or distracted. I still think my explanation fits much better - the scout uses movement to locate the weakest part of his opponent by gaining a slightly different view. His attack then takes advantage of this weak area. And yes even a straight movement would work since the scout is getting a different view, either closer or farther. A few in/cm can make a huge difference from 20 ft away. My explanatin also works for determining why the scout uses his movment to get an AC Bonus - he is moving to minimize his weak areas with relation to his foe.

Regardless, if you are still thinking that the skirmish works via catching the foe off guard then you will never be satisfied with any other explanation and just let it be.

A side note - a rogue can still get a sneak attack with movement from range. He can take a move and then use a ranged attack at up to 30ft and get a sneak attack as long as his opponent is denied his Dex bonus to AC.

All skills are class skills. Fighters can be good at diplomacy or knowledge or whatever. Paladins can be good at spotting danger. Rogues can be good at camping and hunting. Barbarian vikings can be masters of profession sailor. Whatever works for the character concept.

Also trapfinding, everybody can detect any traps with a sufficient search check, Rogue trapfinding means they detect traps like elves detect secret doors (picked up from everquest rpg rogues).

So pretty much the differences in every class have been reduced. Fair enough, but it does make things like the Bard (a heavy skill based class) less effective when everyone has the same class skills.
 

irdeggman said:
This I think is the crux of the problem with your understanding of the class' ability. It has nothing to do with catching the foe off guard - that is what a rogue does. The skirmish ability has nothing do with the opponent being denied his Dex bonus (which is what the catching him off guard boils down to). If you keep thinking of it in this way you will never see why or how it works.

***

There have been several different explanations given for why the skirmish ability could be justified, but you seem to have fixed on the one that parrallels the rogue's ability that is based on catching the opponent off guard or distracted. I still think my explanation fits much better - the scout uses movement to locate the weakest part of his opponent by gaining a slightly different view. His attack then takes advantage of this weak area. And yes even a straight movement would work since the scout is getting a different view, either closer or farther. A few in/cm can make a huge difference from 20 ft away. My explanatin also works for determining why the scout uses his movment to get an AC Bonus - he is moving to minimize his weak areas with relation to his foe.

Regardless, if you are still thinking that the skirmish works via catching the foe off guard then you will never be satisfied with any other explanation and just let it be.

A side note - a rogue can still get a sneak attack with movement from range. He can take a move and then use a ranged attack at up to 30ft and get a sneak attack as long as his opponent is denied his Dex bonus to AC.

Irdeggman, your sweet spot theory suggests there is a right spot to hit to get the extra damage. However to find this sweet spot you must move and shoot.

If the opponent is paralyzed, and you shoot at him no extra damage. Move within the five foot square or an adjacent one to adjust your shot, no extra damage.

You move 10' to be in position to take the shot and fire right away you get the extra damage. If you move into the position, get distracted for a round then fire, no extra damage.

However if you move back to the original spot where you could not get the sweet spot before on the paralyzed guy who has not moved and fire you now get sweet spot and the extra damage.

Correct?
 

Voadam said:
Irdeggman, your sweet spot theory suggests there is a right spot to hit to get the extra damage. However to find this sweet spot you must move and shoot.

If the opponent is paralyzed, and you shoot at him no extra damage. Move within the five foot square or an adjacent one to adjust your shot, no extra damage.

You move 10' to be in position to take the shot and fire right away you get the extra damage. If you move into the position, get distracted for a round then fire, no extra damage.

However if you move back to the original spot where you could not get the sweet spot before on the paralyzed guy who has not moved and fire you now get sweet spot and the extra damage.

Correct?

According to the prestige class, as long as you move 10' you can hit a different s"weet spot." I don't know how this prestige class was meant to interact with paralyzed victims, but I would rule that the actual movement has something to do with the extra damage, not just the different position.
 

irdeggman said:
So pretty much the differences in every class have been reduced. Fair enough, but it does make things like the Bard (a heavy skill based class) less effective when everyone has the same class skills.

True, the benefits of marginal utility from having specialized skills on your class skill list are negated. Bards, rangers, and rogues still are the skill monkey classes because of the number of skill points they get per level though.

In general I find skills not that important, they are mostly reflections of character concepts IMC, not character power. Class abilities, feats, and magic much more determine D&D character power IME and IMC. The class powers, combat abilities, and magic are more determinative of a class archetype and gaming role that I want to see than the skill list. Having the class skill difference be in number of skill points they get is fine for my purposes.
 

Skirmish as Defense:


Would it make more sense to you, Voadam, to allow the class but change the Skirmish ability so that, if the character moves at least 10 feet in a round, he gains a bonus to AC rather than damage?

NOTE: I don't have the Scout rules to look at, so perhaps this is already covered in the class write up.


RC
 

Raven Crowking said:
Skirmish as Defense:


Would it make more sense to you, Voadam, to allow the class but change the Skirmish ability so that, if the character moves at least 10 feet in a round, he gains a bonus to AC rather than damage?

He gets both a bonus to AC and a bonus to damage when he moves.
 

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