Scroll Activation Issue

[candidus_cogitens]

Okay, on PHB p. 126, it says that it takes a standard action to activate a scroll.

However, in the DMG, p.199, 203, it says that the activation of a scroll (AFTER you have already deciphered it ahead of time!!) requires you to "read the spell from the scroll."

My question is this: How can you possibly read the arcane writing on a scroll in less than six seconds?! Note that in the "Read Magic" spell description, it says that reading arcane writing takes one minute per page.

Are scrolls only four words long, or what?!?

 

[Epametheus]

Honestly? Don't worry about it. Considering that most spells can be cast under 6 seconds anyways (hell, two can be cast in under 6 seconds if you're hasted), it's entirely possible that the normal incantation is just a couple words and a gesture. So yeah, the guy using the scroll is probably just reading a short key phrase off of it to trigger the whole thing.

 

[candidus_cogitens]

A) The only reason most spells take six seconds or less is that you have either PREPARED the spell ahead of time, or you are using your innate charisma-based abilities. Scrolls do not draw upon your innate abilities, nor do they require "preparation." Note that deciphering is not the same as preparation.

B) If you are right that all you have to do is say the key phrase at the end of the spell to trigger it, then WHY doesnt it say that in the rules?? It clearly says that you have to read the spell directly from the scroll, not simply speak a trigger phrase.

 

[AuraSeer]

My question is this: How can you possibly read the arcane writing on a scroll in less than six seconds?! Note that in the "Read Magic" spell description, it says that reading arcane writing takes one minute per page.

When using Read Magic, you are trying to translate something you have never seen before. You painstakingly convert the writer's notation into a form you can understand.

By the time you're ready to cast from a scroll, you've already gone through that laborious process, and you know what the scroll says. All you have to do is recite the appropriate few words, and perhaps make a gesture.

Are scrolls only four words long, or what?!?

Hey, why not? The whole point is that they be easy to use. Maybe there's a four-word incancation, and then a bunch of runes and symbols that hold the actual spell power. Or perhaps there's just one activation word, and a lot of diagrams showing the precise arcane gestures that go with it.

The point is, activating a scroll takes no longer than casting a spell from memory. The exact pseudo-scientific explanation doesn't really matter.

 

[AuraSeer]

A) The only reason most spells take six seconds or less is that you have either PREPARED the spell ahead of time, or you are using your innate charisma-based abilities. Scrolls do not draw upon your innate abilities, nor do they require "preparation." Note that deciphering is not the same as preparation.

The user of a scroll needn't "prepare" the scroll, because the scriber did so already.

When scribing a scroll, a character must have the spell prepared. The prepared spell is expended in the scribing process, even to the point of consuming material components. A number of XP are spent to "seal" the spell in scroll form. From that point forward, the energy of the spell is entirely contained in the scroll. No further "preparation" per se is needed on the part of the user.

B) If you are right that all you have to do is say the key phrase at the end of the spell to trigger it, then WHY doesnt it say that in the rules?? It clearly says that you have to read the spell directly from the scroll, not simply speak a trigger phrase.

It also clearly says that casting from a scroll is a standard action. Who says a spell has to be long? Maybe a Fireball scroll contains only the words "Vas Por Flam!" and nothing else.

Even if there's a lot of words on the scroll, maybe casters are just trained to read very fast.

 

[Epametheus]

A) The only reason most spells take six seconds or less is that you have either PREPARED the spell ahead of time, or you are using your innate charisma-based abilities. Scrolls do not draw upon your innate abilities, nor do they require "preparation." Note that deciphering is not the same as preparation.

B) If you are right that all you have to do is say the key phrase at the end of the spell to trigger it, then WHY doesnt it say that in the rules?? It clearly says that you have to read the spell directly from the scroll, not simply speak a trigger phrase.

A) Actually, for all practical purposes it is the same as preparation. Non-spontaneous casters can't use their spells until they're prepared. They can't use a scroll (hell, they don't even know what the scroll is) until they've deciphered it. You prepare a scroll for use by deciphering it. Since it takes a minute to decipher a page-long scroll, you can't bust out unindentified scrolls in combat and expect to able to actually use them.

B) Because they figured people wouldn't get hung up on the impossibility of reading a page of arcane text in under 6 seconds? Or they forgot that rounds were now 6 seconds instead of 1 minute? The designers didn't worry about it, honestly. If you feel that it should take a minute for any spell to be cast off a scroll, you're free to make that the rule in your campaign. The wizard won't be very happy with you, but hey, it's your game. If you're determined to have strict realism with your magic but don't want to nerf scrolls, having a trigger phrase for the scroll should do the trick.

Seriously, it's not a big deal. It takes about a minute or so to decipher a spell on a scroll, and it takes less than 6 seconds to activate a deciphered scroll. That's just how it works.

 

[candidus_cogitens]

Re: Re: Scroll Activation Issue

When using Read Magic, you are trying to translate something you have never seen before. You painstakingly convert the writer's notation into a form you can understand.
By the time you're ready to cast from a scroll, you've already gone through that laborious process, and you know what the scroll says. All you have to do is recite the appropriate few words, and perhaps make a gesture.

[......]
Maybe there's a four-word incancation, and then a bunch of runes and symbols that hold the actual spell power. Or perhaps there's just one activation word, and a lot of diagrams showing the precise arcane gestures that go with it.

First of all, look again at the read magic description. Specifically: "Once the spell is cast and you have read the magical inscription, you are thereafter able to read that particular writing without recourse to the use of read magic. You can read at the rate of one page (250 words) per minute." Clearly this means that even after you have interpreted and translated the words, you can still can only read a page per minute. Therefore, if a scroll is one page long, it would take a minute to read, even after you have deciphered it.

When a wizard writes a spell into his spellbook, it uses two pages per spell level, regardless of whether these pages contain incantations, diagrams, symbols, runes, or doodles. And regardless of the nature of the writing, you can't get through it any faster than 250 words/min.

Furthermore, IF you were right, and you only had to say a key word to trigger the scroll, then why would you have to look at the scroll during the activation of it. Why couldn't you just remember the word or phrase that you need, or copy it onto a scrap of parchment and pin it to your cloak?

I still can't figure out why it would say that you have to read the scroll in order to activate it. It's goofy.

The only way I can think to fix it is to come up with some kind of house rule. Like maybe you actually use up the scroll and the writing vanishes from it when you first read it. The power of the scroll is transferred to you, and only requires a key word, not the scroll itself, to be be released. Something like that.

 

[candidus_cogitens]

If you feel that it should take a minute for any spell to be cast off a scroll, you're free to make that the rule in your campaign. The wizard won't be very happy with you, but hey, it's your game. If you're determined to have strict realism with your magic but don't want to nerf scrolls, having a trigger phrase for the scroll should do the trick.

Seriously, it's not a big deal. It takes about a minute or so to decipher a spell on a scroll, and it takes less than 6 seconds to activate a deciphered scroll. That's just how it works.

Don't get defensive on me. I'm not trying to undermine the game or anything. I just think it is fun to try to figure this kind of thing out. Yes, I am interested in realism. But mostly, I am just interested in consistency. I like to be able to visualize what is going on. It helps me get into character if I have thought through how things work. It is FUN to try to work out the quasi-scientifico-magical systems that my character experiences in the game world.

I guess what I would conclude is that the DMG is simply poorly worded. You don't have to actually read the spell again to activate it. All you need is a trigger word, although you still have to have the scroll itself there essentially as a kind of material component, and you have to actually look at the scroll at the moment of activation as a kind of somatic component, and these together with the verbal component trigger the effect.

 

[AuraSeer]

Re: Re: Re: Scroll Activation Issue

[...]Therefore, if a scroll is one page long, it would take a minute to read, even after you have deciphered it.

That's nice. What if the scroll consists of two words? That'll take a whole lot less than a minute to read.

Furthermore, IF you were right, and you only had to say a key word to trigger the scroll, then why would you have to look at the scroll during the activation of it.

Dude, it's magic. You might as well ask why Fireball requires sulfur, or why a Wall of Force is invisible. It works that way because that's how it works.

The only way I can think to fix it[...]

Fix what? It's not broken!

A scroll is a magic item that lets you cast a spell in one round, because that's what scrolls do. It requires that you be able to see and read the writing, because that's how scrolls work. It's balanced in power against other magic items, it's useful in the game, and it has clear, straightforward rules. I really don't see why you're having such a conniption over it.

If you want a ruleset that simulates reality down to the speed of reading individual words, you're playing the wrong game.

If you're just determined to change the way scrolls work, that's fine, but the House Rules forum is that way.

 

[candidus_cogitens]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Scroll Activation Issue

I really don't see why you're having such a conniption over it.

Well, I wasn't having a conniption fit, but that might be more productive than trying to salvage a non-collegial and unfriendly dialogue.