Sean K Reynolds on working at Paizo (and other companies)

[Staffan]

Not to mention the VTT companies themselves. Or DnDBeyond or drive thru. Or the patrons that do stls or heroforge and it’s new competition.

I have a strong feeling that there is substantial money to be made in the RPG business. However, for whatever reason, that money is rarely in the RPGs themselves or in other written material – there's certainly some money there, but not a lot. But there's definitely a lot of money in RPG accessories: dice, miniatures, spell cards, VTTs and stuff for them, and so on. This might be because the games themselves are so cheap, so there are lots of DMs who'd rather buy cool minis for the adventure they're about to run than buy another adventure. And because the ability to make your own adventures is substantially more common than the ability to make your own minis.

 

[Staffan]

Yes.

The best approach, in my opinion, is for role-players to find their income elsewhere and focus on role-playing games out of love.

That's generally not a good recipe for high-quality stuff, though. Pros are generally better at things than amateurs, because pros can focus on the thing. They do more things, so they learn how making the thing works, and what things do not work.

 

[CapnZapp]

Yeah, the idea that there's no money in RPGs is clearly wrong. Even setting aside D&D (which, to judge by WotC's recent behavior, is making money hand over fist), the industry supports a number of companies with full-time employees. I mean, since we're talking Paizo: Their pay may be pretty low, but they still employ about 80 FTEs. That's a hefty payroll. And apparently they had enough spare cash floating around to chase the MMO dream for a while--which is a whole lot of spare cash; the table stakes to even start to build an MMO are enormous.

Now, what is true is that the ratio of "money in RPGs" to "people who would like to make money in RPGs" is pretty damn small. As with most such markets, you see a modest number of people who are able to turn a profit, and a handful of people who are able to make it a full-time job, and a whole lot of people who try and fail to do either.

This completely ignores what WIRED said: there are only two companies with more than 50 employees in the entire industry.

Please acknowledge that is no industry.

Pick any industry you like, and examine its 21st or 99th biggest company. It will be several thousand times larger than the corresponding ttrpg company.

The comparison to "most such markets" is what feels wrong here.

 

[CapnZapp]

That's generally not a good recipe for high-quality stuff, though. Pros are generally better at things than amateurs, because pros can focus on the thing. They do more things, so they learn how making the thing works, and what things do not work.

In general I would agree. But that just doesn't apply here.

 

[Dausuul]

This completely ignores what WIRED said: there are only two companies with more than 50 employees in the entire industry.

Please acknowledge that is no industry.

I acknowledge no such thing. You're just arbitrarily declaring words to mean things that are convenient to... whatever argument you're trying to make, I've lost track. Last I checked, we were talking about money.

 

[CapnZapp]

I have a strong feeling that there is substantial money to be made in the RPG business. However, for whatever reason, that money is rarely in the RPGs themselves or in other written material – there's certainly some money there, but not a lot. But there's definitely a lot of money in RPG accessories: dice, miniatures, spell cards, VTTs and stuff for them, and so on.

I completely agree.

Of course, another way of phrasing this would be: I have a strong feeling there is not any money to be made in the actual business of RPGs.



I have long made the observation that as soon as a rpg company branches out into [insert pretty much any other business here] your actual rpg goes to sh*t, or is at the very least put on the backest burner there is.

 

[CapnZapp]

I was unable to make the link work for me, but I'm assuming it is from this Twitter thread. Well, someone was asking earlier about current employee, here's one.

"I need you to convince yourself that you want to pay more for your RPG products. The job requires huge expertise. I work with brilliant people who are worldwide experts in their field."
Quote:

I am afraid I think that is an inflated view. The reality just is that Paizo (together with WotC and so on) aren't the only ones that can provide you with a world-class experience.

There is a definite wages-dampener Mr Seifter seems to not see, in that the "huge expertise" you need is acquired simply by playing and gamesmastering and discussing your favorite games.

(Of course Mr Seifter could be talking specifically about expertise in his company's specific product, though I do not believe he is. If so, yes, Pathfinder 2 is a complex game - he would probably be right. But you don't need any of that complexity to enjoy a world-class experience.)

 

[Mannahnin]

This completely ignores what WIRED said: there are only two companies with more than 50 employees in the entire industry.

Please acknowledge that is no industry.

Pick any industry you like, and examine its 21st or 99th biggest company. It will be several thousand times larger than the corresponding ttrpg company.

The comparison to "most such markets" is what feels wrong here.

Two companies which employ more than fifty employees is more than zero.

Smaller companies like Mongoose, Monte Cook Games, Cubicle 7, Mophidius and Fria Ligan (and that's certainly not an exhaustive list) which still have full-time staff working 9-5 also exist.

Morrus also pointed out the crowdfunded ecosystem and has documented the various (nine or ten so far this year?) TTRPG Kickstarters which have exceed a million dollars.

As One Million Dollar Kickstarter Ends, Another Appears!

As you may know, I started keeping track of the Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarter Club a while back. What I've noticed is the increasing frequency of these Kickstarters which gross a million dollars or more -- we've gone from a position where we'd have one every few years to where they're coming...

www.enworld.org

It's completely reasonable to note that TTRPGs are a relatively small and boutique industry, but denying that it has any industry at all seems silly.

 

[CapnZapp]

Last I checked, we were talking about money.

Last I checked, we were discussing various reasons the rpg business pay low wages.

 

[CapnZapp]

It's completely reasonable to note that TTRPGs are a relatively small and boutique industry, but denying that it has any industry at all seems silly.

I want to contest how insiders and fans alike refer to the business as an "industry". That brings along so many implied assumptions, which in this case are almost all wrong.

It is much more instructive, I think, to call it "not an industry", since that explains so many things. Or at least, avoids you assuming those things.

(No, your job isn't just a job that deserves a high salary. No you aren't nearly as irreplaceable as you think. There just isn't any comparison to cotton mill factory workers of old, or, say, Amazon workers today. Those sectors actually saw some serious cash!)

Since it was a few pages since I last said it, let me be clear: I wish the best for Paizo's employees. I just hope they don't expect too much.